The Struggle for the Soul of America

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:44 pm I call obesity a disability because it causes diabetes, heart disease, and shortens their lives by as much as ten years for men. You are too cavalier about stopping eating so much. You know little about it. Most obese people wish they were thinner.
Is it somebody's choice that they get ill ill with cancer?
My wife was very successful Weight Watcher leader for many years. There is only one problem those who, "wish," they weighed less make, they just keep choosing to eat (with endless excuses), but everything the shove in their mouth they choose to eat. As my grandmother always said, "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
You are clueless.
Have you ever been hungry so that you can do nothing until you eat?
And have you ever been satiated so that you cannot eat anymore?

Nearly everyone would say yes, that at some point in their lives they have experienced these two states.

But neither of these states of mind are government by reason, it is the balance of hormones and such things as blood sugar that enforce these feelings in a person.
It is not about rational choice.
And do you suppose that everyone has the exact same balance of these hormones?
People who end up overweight are continually battling the urge to eat more, just as those with anorexia have problems with feeling the need for food.

In a land where food is pushed into your face at every possible opportunity. The battle to ignore hunger is more difficult. And where the foods that are offered are designed to encourage more hunger whilst avoiding satiation. You are going to get a problem.
Why the fuck do you think that obesity was never such a problem until the last 60 years or so?
Fact is that the human race is faced with an unnatural diet which we are not evolved to cope with. To some lucky few this presents no problem. But since most of us have traits that have been selected for eating all we can when we can: because scarcity was the natural state, and over eating is a selectively advantageous trait in a natural environment - this means that in times of plenty people's bodies are demanding that they eat more.
And the food is designed to push those same buttons.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:28 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:33 pm
So you consider being autistic a fault?

If someone has a handicap (and 99% of those who claim them just have conditions others have without compliant and live quite successfully), does that mean someone is at fault?

If I have a physical defect that prevents me from doing at least the minimum necessary to sustain my own life, I will die. It has nothing to do with, "fault." It's just a fact.

If I am able to at least do enough to sustain my own life, and I don't, I will die, and that's my own fault.
If you are born to an impoverished immigrant mother and have a deprived childhood, is it your fault and would you become successful if you only try hard enough?
Deprived of what? If I use whatever it is you call a deprived child as an excuse to become nothing as an adult, that is my fault. There are children you, no doubt, would call deprived, who have made wonderfully successful lives for themselves.

Some examples:

Teen who grew up in homeless shelters earns full ride to Harvard University

[Key word: earns]

Formerly homeless teen graduates college on the Dean's List:

Never mind!
Yeah. Poverty does not matter since we have the Lottery.
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:44 pm I call obesity a disability because it causes diabetes, heart disease, and shortens their lives by as much as ten years for men. You are too cavalier about stopping eating so much. You know little about it. Most obese people wish they were thinner.
Is it somebody's choice that they get ill ill with cancer?
My wife was very successful Weight Watcher leader for many years. There is only one problem those who, "wish," they weighed less make, they just keep choosing to eat (with endless excuses), but everything the shove in their mouth they choose to eat. As my grandmother always said, "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

Anything worthwhile is going to take hard work and all the wishing and hand wringing in the world accomplishes exactly nothing. Nothing of real value is easy and the more valuable a thing is, more time, work, and unpleasantness will have to be endured to achieve it. It's a choice, most choose what's easier and comfortable and then complain about their failure and call it a disability.

Nobody says it's easy. All real achievement is damn hard and those who have achieved things have paid the price, but "liberal educationists and social reformers," call them, "priviledged," and, "elite."

So all your empathy for some poor slob who cannot loose weight is phoney, because if they finally decide to take their life into their own hands, suffer those days of not eating every time they, "feel the urge," and loose the weight and go on to make something successful of their life, you'll call them, "priviledged," or, "elite."
You are not entirely wrong, this is to say your reasoning is simplisitc. Your reasoning regards individuals who fail or succeed "Anything worthwhile is going to take hard work". It's often true anything worthwhile is going to take hard work, however there are other dimensions to success than the one simple dimension of hard work. Cannot you see that?

Moreover not every rich person got there by honest hard work.All too many became rich by means of loopholes in the law , by having rich friends, by good fortune, by inherited wealth, by personal charm, and by straightforward crime against the law or against humanity. Surely you know that?

One of my friends inherited wealth which he claimed he and his wife did not need and they endowed a children's home with it. Some rich people give their wealth away but many don't look outside of their enclosed social circle. Some use their wealth to get political power over poor and ignorant people.

As for elite groups , there are always elite groups . Any society has a power elite. 'Elite' is not a term of disdain among educated people.
Last edited by Belinda on Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 2131
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:16 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:44 pm I call obesity a disability because it causes diabetes, heart disease, and shortens their lives by as much as ten years for men. You are too cavalier about stopping eating so much. You know little about it. Most obese people wish they were thinner.
Is it somebody's choice that they get ill ill with cancer?
My wife was very successful Weight Watcher leader for many years. There is only one problem those who, "wish," they weighed less make, they just keep choosing to eat (with endless excuses), but everything the shove in their mouth they choose to eat. As my grandmother always said, "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
You are clueless.

Have you ever been hungry so that you can do nothing until you eat?
And have you ever been satiated so that you cannot eat anymore?

Nearly everyone would say yes, that at some point in their lives they have experienced these two states.

But neither of these states of mind are government by reason, it is the balance of hormones and such things as blood sugar that enforce these feelings in a person.
It is not about rational choice.
And do you suppose that everyone has the exact same balance of these hormones?
People who end up overweight are continually battling the urge to eat more, just as those with anorexia have problems with feeling the need for food.

In a land where food is pushed into your face at every possible opportunity. The battle to ignore hunger is more difficult. And where the foods that are offered are designed to encourage more hunger whilst avoiding satiation. You are going to get a problem.
Why the fuck do you think that obesity was never such a problem until the last 60 years or so?
Fact is that the human race is faced with an unnatural diet which we are not evolved to cope with. To some lucky few this presents no problem. But since most of us have traits that have been selected for eating all we can when we can: because scarcity was the natural state, and over eating is a selectively advantageous trait in a natural environment - this means that in times of plenty people's bodies are demanding that they eat more.
And the food is designed to push those same buttons.
Just say no!
Or suffer the consequences. I'm not going to try to dissuade you from your excuses. You'll just go find some enablers somewhere who will assure you, "you just can't help what you do." But, they are not helping you.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 2131
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:43 pm It's often true anything worthwhile is going to take hard work, however there are other dimensions to success than the one simple dimension of hard work. Cannot you see that?
There are endless other dimensions, but without hard work, none of them matter. Most people fail because they do not even do the simplest thing they can, which is to learn all they can about as many things as they possibly can, because that's just too much work. Without that, nothing else can possibly succeed.
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:43 pm It's often true anything worthwhile is going to take hard work, however there are other dimensions to success than the one simple dimension of hard work. Cannot you see that?
There are endless other dimensions, but without hard work, none of them matter. Most people fail because they do not even do the simplest thing they can, which is to learn all they can about as many things as they possibly can, because that's just too much work. Without that, nothing else can possibly succeed.
The reasons most people don't even do the simplest things they can are usually one of two. 1. They are uneducated due to lacks of opportunity. 2. They are so discouraged and hopeless it is not worth making any effort.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:52 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:16 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 pm
My wife was very successful Weight Watcher leader for many years. There is only one problem those who, "wish," they weighed less make, they just keep choosing to eat (with endless excuses), but everything the shove in their mouth they choose to eat. As my grandmother always said, "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
You are clueless.

Have you ever been hungry so that you can do nothing until you eat?
And have you ever been satiated so that you cannot eat anymore?

Nearly everyone would say yes, that at some point in their lives they have experienced these two states.

But neither of these states of mind are government by reason, it is the balance of hormones and such things as blood sugar that enforce these feelings in a person.
It is not about rational choice.
And do you suppose that everyone has the exact same balance of these hormones?
People who end up overweight are continually battling the urge to eat more, just as those with anorexia have problems with feeling the need for food.

In a land where food is pushed into your face at every possible opportunity. The battle to ignore hunger is more difficult. And where the foods that are offered are designed to encourage more hunger whilst avoiding satiation. You are going to get a problem.
Why the fuck do you think that obesity was never such a problem until the last 60 years or so?
Fact is that the human race is faced with an unnatural diet which we are not evolved to cope with. To some lucky few this presents no problem. But since most of us have traits that have been selected for eating all we can when we can: because scarcity was the natural state, and over eating is a selectively advantageous trait in a natural environment - this means that in times of plenty people's bodies are demanding that they eat more.
And the food is designed to push those same buttons.
Just say no!
Or suffer the consequences. I'm not going to try to dissuade you from your excuses. You'll just go find some enablers somewhere who will assure you, "you just can't help what you do." But, they are not helping you.
Like I said - you are clueless.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 2131
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:01 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:43 pm It's often true anything worthwhile is going to take hard work, however there are other dimensions to success than the one simple dimension of hard work. Cannot you see that?
There are endless other dimensions, but without hard work, none of them matter. Most people fail because they do not even do the simplest thing they can, which is to learn all they can about as many things as they possibly can, because that's just too much work. Without that, nothing else can possibly succeed.
The reasons most people don't even do the simplest things they can are usually one of two. 1. They are uneducated due to lacks of opportunity. 2. They are so discouraged and hopeless it is not worth making any effort.
Yes, there are endless excuses, but reality doesn't care about them.
Nick_A
Posts: 5215
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Cooperation vs competition. Could these values ever work together for the benefit of humanity? Maybe in the future but for now the struggle is for the great prize which is the soul of America. Since we have devolved from "rule by law" into "might makes right," it will be a violent struggle.
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:01 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:01 pm
There are endless other dimensions, but without hard work, none of them matter. Most people fail because they do not even do the simplest thing they can, which is to learn all they can about as many things as they possibly can, because that's just too much work. Without that, nothing else can possibly succeed.
The reasons most people don't even do the simplest things they can are usually one of two. 1. They are uneducated due to lacks of opportunity. 2. They are so discouraged and hopeless it is not worth making any effort.
Yes, there are endless excuses, but reality doesn't care about them.
That is true. I feel safer knowing what reality is. It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.It is fairly simple to make it better. I can't understand why political reality is not being changed to make it better.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 2131
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.
Poor people aren't honest men?
Nick_A
Posts: 5215
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:01 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
The reasons most people don't even do the simplest things they can are usually one of two. 1. They are uneducated due to lacks of opportunity. 2. They are so discouraged and hopeless it is not worth making any effort.
Yes, there are endless excuses, but reality doesn't care about them.
That is true. I feel safer knowing what reality is. It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.It is fairly simple to make it better. I can't understand why political reality is not being changed to make it better.
The Great Beast like any other beast is a creature of reaction reacting to natural and cosmic influences. You can't ask a leopard to change its spots nor ask the Great Beast to be different from what it is. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.
Poor people aren't honest men?
It is dishonest to try to put your words in my mouth.
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:01 am
Yes, there are endless excuses, but reality doesn't care about them.
That is true. I feel safer knowing what reality is. It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.It is fairly simple to make it better. I can't understand why political reality is not being changed to make it better.
The Great Beast like any other beast is a creature of reaction reacting to natural and cosmic influences. You can't ask a leopard to change its spots nor ask the Great Beast to be different from what it is. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.

Meaning of fatalism in English:


fatalism
Pronunciation /ˈfeɪtəlɪz(ə)m/
Translate fatalism into Spanish

NOUN
mass noun
1The belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

‘fatalism can breed indifference to the human costs of war’
More example sentences
1.1A submissive attitude to events, resulting from a fatalistic attitude.
‘he experienced a sense of fatalism that kept his fear at bay’
OED
Nick_A
Posts: 5215
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:56 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am
That is true. I feel safer knowing what reality is. It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.It is fairly simple to make it better. I can't understand why political reality is not being changed to make it better.
The Great Beast like any other beast is a creature of reaction reacting to natural and cosmic influences. You can't ask a leopard to change its spots nor ask the Great Beast to be different from what it is. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.

Meaning of fatalism in English:


fatalism
Pronunciation /ˈfeɪtəlɪz(ə)m/
Translate fatalism into Spanish

NOUN
mass noun
1The belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

‘fatalism can breed indifference to the human costs of war’
More example sentences
1.1A submissive attitude to events, resulting from a fatalistic attitude.
‘he experienced a sense of fatalism that kept his fear at bay’
OED
Actually it is the opposite. What I am referring to offers hope for the INDIVIDUAL. An individual can come to realize and verify he is an atom of the Great Beast and verify why it is so. Then if his need and his will are sufficient, he can become consciously human. A person does not have to remain a atom of the Great Beast. It is possible to become human and consciously evolve as a human can
Post Reply