The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:33 pm The concept of democracy asserts that the government works for the people. Is that what is happening now or has the concept become so corrupted people now work for the government?
Governments consist of individuals who have clawed their way to the top of the political tree, quite often involving great sacrifice in other areas of their lives. Few if any get there without a great deal of effort. Do you really think that such a person puts him/herself through the mill out of a desire to serve the public? No, what gets them there is personal ambition. What reason have you got to think democracy in general is anymore corrupted now than it ever was?
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm
Affirmation and denial is the same as yin and yang. The universe is governed by the interactions of these two elemental forces:
Is that a widely acknowledged opinion, or just yours?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm we are too attached to what is taking place to experience it as one but instead as unrelated parts..
Has it been demonstrated empirically that it is better to experience these things as one? And how can you know how anyone other than yourself experiences it?
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:33 pm The concept of democracy asserts that the government works for the people. Is that what is happening now or has the concept become so corrupted people now work for the government?
Governments consist of individuals who have clawed their way to the top of the political tree, quite often involving great sacrifice in other areas of their lives. Few if any get there without a great deal of effort. Do you really think that such a person puts him/herself through the mill out of a desire to serve the public? No, what gets them there is personal ambition. What reason have you got to think democracy in general is anymore corrupted now than it ever was?
Democracy is an ideal. People are now taliking bout transforming America . Does this talk of transformation suggest we are moving closer to it or futher from it now?
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:02 pm
Democracy is an ideal. People are now taliking bout transforming America . Does this talk of transformation suggest we are moving closer to it or futher from it now?
Well if there was ever a personification of the Beast, it is Donald J Trump, so what would you say the answer to your question is?
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:55 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm
Affirmation and denial is the same as yin and yang. The universe is governed by the interactions of these two elemental forces:
Is that a widely acknowledged opinion, or just yours?
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:44 pm we are too attached to what is taking place to experience it as one but instead as unrelated parts..
Has it been demonstrated empirically that it is better to experience these things as one? And how can you know how anyone other than yourself experiences it?
People can live happy lives with no experience of the third force. they are good citizens, accept responsibility, and pay their bills etc. Some with need for meaning are still not content and are attracted to meaning that doesn't originte in our world. It requires a quality of consciousness unnecessary for animal life. Those Attracted to non secular philosophy And religion are attracted to this possibility. if a person is hungry for meaning they pursue their next meal. Nothing to prove
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:15 pm
People can live happy lives with no experience of the third force. they are good citizens, accept responsibility, and pay their bills etc. Some with need for meaning are still not content and are attracted to meaning that doesn't originte in our world. It requires a quality of consciousness unnecessary for animal life. Those Attracted to non secular philosophy And religion are attracted to this possibility. if a person is hungry for meaning they pursue their next meal. Nothing to prove
Well I don't have a religious or spiritual bone in my body, but I know the world we perceive is not the ultimate reality. I am sure I think as deeply as anyone about the possibilities regarding our existence. I can assure you that being secular, as I understand the word, is not an obstacle to wondering what wonders might lay behind the illusion of reality.
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:23 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:15 pm
People can live happy lives with no experience of the third force. they are good citizens, accept responsibility, and pay their bills etc. Some with need for meaning are still not content and are attracted to meaning that doesn't originte in our world. It requires a quality of consciousness unnecessary for animal life. Those Attracted to non secular philosophy And religion are attracted to this possibility. if a person is hungry for meaning they pursue their next meal. Nothing to prove
Well I don't have a religious or spiritual bone in my body, but I know the world we perceive is not the ultimate reality. I am sure I think as deeply as anyone about the possibilities regarding our existence. I can assure you that being secular, as I understand the word, is not an obstacle to wondering what wonders might lay behind the illusion of reality.
How would you define secular? I define it as the human psyche reacting to the two elemental forces I described as yin and yang.
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:37 pm
How would you define secular? I define it as the human psyche reacting to the two elemental forces I described as yin and yang.
I would describe it as not being constrained by the pre-prescribed visions of others. Secularism is the freedom to figure out the underlying truth of existence for oneself. Not that all secularists use the freedom for that purpose. :)
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:44 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:37 pm
How would you define secular? I define it as the human psyche reacting to the two elemental forces I described as yin and yang.
I would describe it as not being constrained by the pre-prescribed visions of others. Secularism is the freedom to figure out the underlying truth of existence for oneself. Not that all secularists use the freedom for that purpose. :)
But can a person do it through the two forces of yin and yang while being third force blind? Have to go out now but will leve you with the intro to what it means to be third force blind. It is years head of its time but just indicates the psychological potential for humanity.

http://esoteric.msu.edu/Reviews/NicolescuReview.htm
After reading Nicolescu's Manifesto of Transdisciplinarity, it is hard to imagine how any thinking person could retreat to the old, safe, comfortable conceptual framework. Taking a series of ideas that would be extremely thought-provoking even when considered one by one, the Romanian quantum physicist Basarab Nicolescu weaves them together in a stunning vision, this manifesto of the twenty-first century, so that they emerge as a shimmering, profoundly radical whole.

Nicolescu’s raison d’être is to help develop people’s consciousness by means of showing them how to approach things in terms of what he calls “transdisciplinarity.” He seeks to address head on the problem of fragmentation that plagues contemporary life. Nicolescu maintains that binary logic, the logic underlying most all of our social, economic, and political institutions, is not sufficient to encompass or address all human situations. His thinking aids in the unification of the scientific culture and the sacred, something which increasing numbers of persons, will find to be an enormous help, among them wholistic health practitioners seeking to promote the understanding of illness as something arising from the interwoven fabric—body, plus mind, plus spirit—that constitutes the whole human being, and academics frustrated by the increasing pressure to produce only so-called “value-free” material...........................
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:10 pm
But can a person do it through the two forces of yin and yang while being third force blind? Have to go out now but will leve you with the intro to what it means to be third force blind. It is years head of its time but just indicates the psychological potential for humanity.
I don't see the world in terms of yin and yang, and I don't really get your concept of "third force blind". Maybe I have a different name for these things, or don't have a name for them at all, or perhaps I am on a completely different track. I am curious and open minded, that's all; I don't have anyone else's road map to follow; I decide what to make of something when I come across it, rather than try to mold it into the shape of something I've been told to expect.

It is probably something to do with my age, but I spend much more time thinking about the nature of existence than hankering after material things, but we can't expect everyone to be like that, particularly the young. Earning more money, owning a bigger house, acquiring a more prestigious car, and going on ever more exotic holidays are not the way to happiness, but you can't tell anybody that, they have to arrive at that conclusion themselves, although most never do.

I don't think people are any worse now than they've ever been, it's just that our more advanced technology allows us to do much more damage than we used to.
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Harbal, One idea which helps me understand the struggle for the American Soul is the difference between psychology and sociology. Sociology is defined as the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society. the study of social problems. Psychology is defined as the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context.

Can a society from the point of view of sociology be considered a living being having all the diverse psychological characteristics that unite them into "one being" based on higher principes and values? This IMO is the intent for the American soul. The sad truth is that it is no longer wanted by enough to stand up to the pragmatic demands of psychological groups who now live by the axiom that might makes right.

Naturally then, liberty is impossible to sustain from a sociological perspective when might makes right is the dominant objective. E pluribus unum, Latin for "Out of many one", has lost out to "might makes right". Liberty is soon to follow as a failed wonderful ideal.
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:02 pm
Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:33 pm The concept of democracy asserts that the government works for the people. Is that what is happening now or has the concept become so corrupted people now work for the government?
Governments consist of individuals who have clawed their way to the top of the political tree, quite often involving great sacrifice in other areas of their lives. Few if any get there without a great deal of effort. Do you really think that such a person puts him/herself through the mill out of a desire to serve the public? No, what gets them there is personal ambition. What reason have you got to think democracy in general is anymore corrupted now than it ever was?
Democracy is an ideal. People are now taliking bout transforming America . Does this talk of transformation suggest we are moving closer to it or futher from it now?
The US has never been a democracy, though it's been called one. The current people in government, on capital hill, are as corrupt as they have ever been. But then an idiot the likes of you could never understand such truth, as your mind is clouded, deluded.

The only thing constant in the universe is change, and as such we humans have evolved, and many of us are much smarter than you and your ilk. We can see and understand your megalomaniacal smokescreen of a bait and switch mentality, and we're sick of your bullshit. The changes should be a move toward a REAL democracy, where every vote counts, with the elimination of the electoral college, as it was just to appease the bigots, and there is nothing academic about it. The slave owners lost the slavery war, an example of our evolution towards perfection, no longer victims of Neanderthal selfishness; can't call it real thinking. Lazy fucks!!

We the people, by and for the people, ALL THE PEOPLE! Not just for the selfish rich fucks, or those wanna be's like you, that suck up their sweat and semen, whenever they yell jump, as if to catch a scrap from their slop bucket, as if they really give a shite about you. You deluded fuck you!

Trump has done nothing but fucked all the working people of the US, instead stacking the deck of cash for all his cronies, and you want to be one, like all the rest of the dim witted. "Something for nothing, and your chicks for free." The people at the top of the pyramid, are only there by standing on the backs of those they spit on. If every one is equal there are no pyramids, just a beautiful plain, a plateau, green and lush. Not to mention the fact that he's opened us up to the possibility of nuclear war. Of course I'd laugh if all you that stand behind him were the first to be vaporized, can you say poetic justice?

Nick your invalid premise's are transparent, at least to these eyes, such that your conclusions are utterly ridiculous.

Nick do you suffer from a mental condition? Seriously! Because in that way you certainly seem challenged.
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Re: The Struggle for Nicks Imaginary Soul of America

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The religious, like Nick, are certainly the sheep in a world amongst the would be wolves, if they remain in power that is. I'm talking of those types full of an idiotic dogma that has long since outlived it's usefulness, in these days of relative enlightenment, of course. Oh I'd understand it if today a man named Jesus was crucified on hearsay alone, but today it's inadmissible. When people believe in an 2000 year old text written by people probably dealing with epilepsy and schizophrenia, hopeful for life everlasting, so their fear consuming their rational thinking, frightened of the inevitable, I feel sorry for them. I'm talking of those feeble minded so fearful so as to take that leap of faith, so easily led by such illogical stories, no real proof in sight. Where those that are the leaders of such a dogma have been constantly for many years now, rewriting their older proven incorrect falsehoods, while even now the pope searches the heavens for other life forms, something they denied all those years ago. I'd cry for them if I really thought it'd do them any good.

We need rational people like Biden running things, I'm sure he'd allow people to believe in any falsehood they wanted, he'd not be a 'dream police,' I'm certain.

A few facts:

"The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

"Article Six of the United States Constitution specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

All you rational people need to ask yourself why it goes both ways?
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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SoB
The people at the top of the pyramid, are only there by standing on the backs of those they spit on. If every one is equal there are no pyramids, just a beautiful plain, a plateau, green and lush.
This is the essential flaw in your argument. People do not want to be equal; they want prestige. Prestige is the dominant social motive. Understanding why opens many doors which is why it is rejected so violently by the secular progressive agenda. If so your beautiful plain plateau is nothing but dangerous misguided imagination
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:56 am SoB
The people at the top of the pyramid, are only there by standing on the backs of those they spit on. If every one is equal there are no pyramids, just a beautiful plain, a plateau, green and lush.
This is the essential flaw in your argument.
That you see a flaw is telling of your inabilities.

People do not want to be equal; they want prestige.
Speak for yourself of those things that are beyond you.

Prestige is the dominant social motive.
Dominance rarely speaks the truth.

Understanding why opens many doors
Doors go many places, not all of which are wisdom.

which is why it is rejected so violently
That anything is rejected violently, speaks of ignorance and fear.

by the secular progressive agenda.
You've reversed the truth of it. It's the rather archaic, fearful conservative agenda.

If so your beautiful plain plateau is nothing but dangerous misguided imagination
Says the visionless, pessimistic, lazy, fearful, greedy, fools among us.
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