The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Greta
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Post by Greta »

Me: The seeds of discontent lie in the USA's name. A nation that is truly united does not need "united" in its name; unity is a given.

Henry: The United States of America is called the United Stated of America cuz it is a nation comprised of individual, autonomous, states. Which is to say: Louisiana is not beholden to follow the insane internal policies of New York or California, and they are free to ignore Louisiana's. It makes for a disharmony and clunkiness...and thank goodness for that disharmony and clunkiness.

If you think the US is the devil 'now', imagine how demonic we'd be if we were efficient about things.

Me: It was just an observation, and one that cannot be denied. Calling the states "united" was a political act; a statement that unity was expected and would be enforced.



Me: Tensions have reached a point where another American civil war would seem more than likely in the next decade, resulting in further diminished global competitiveness and trust.

Henry: America is built for tension and combativness...our federal gov is designed to lurch and teeter...autonomous states guarantee grinding schisms between states and populations...none of this is new, yet everyone acts as though our perpetual disharmony just happened yesterday. America exists in a state of slow civil war all the time. Again: none of this is new, and it's the heart of the peculiar democratic republic we are.

Me: The only time I have seen this level of disharmony and division in any country in the Anglosphere in my lifetime was northern and southern Ireland, and I am probably older than you (as I seem to be older than just about everyone these days). This level of internal hatred and hostility is new, with the tone of the public conversation becoming increasingly intemperate and hostile.

It's important to understand the concept of degrees. Just because a nation has a naturally combative culture does not mean all times will be equally combative. At present tensions are heating up to an unprecedented level in the US in my lifetime. Anyway, let's see how things transpire ... I know which result I'd have my money on.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"It was just an observation, and one that cannot be denied. Calling the states "united" was a political act; a statement that unity was expected and would be enforced."

But I do deny it. Calling the United States 'united' was initially a descriptive, rebellious act, one that was explicitly a middle finger to the Crown; and -- as I say above -- it describes autonomy of states.

And: secession is always an option.

#

"I am probably older than you"

I'm 55...became politically aware 'round 10... for 45 years I've watched the same shit, the same tensions, the same schisms played out...it ain't new...what is new is the real time access we all have to these tensions and schisms...growing up, it was days or even weeks before I was exposed to stuff...now, I have access 'in the moment'...such access can cause a body unprepared to think shit is worse than it actually is (which is bad to begin with...as it should be).

#

"At present tensions are heating up to an unprecedented level in the US in my lifetime."

No, they're not, you just think they are cuz of what I outline above, and, cuz a bunch of propagandists -- workin' an agenda -- want you to believe it.

##

Flash, you misunderstand me...of course the states are bound together financially...my comments refer to things like Cali going 'sanctuary state' or voting overwhelmingly for Clinton. My pisspoor shithole isn't obligated to follow suit...in the same way, my pisspoor shithole town, Church Point, isn't obligated to go sanctuary city just cuz that pisspoor shithole, New Orleans, does.

Hope my pisspoor shithole explanation clears things up for you.
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Arising_uk
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Post by Arising_uk »

henry quirk wrote:The Empire vs The Republic. ...
I'm with you Luke.
How old is the Empire?
There is no Empire.
How young is the Republic?
Couple of hundred years last time I checked.
Mebbe comparing the two is wrong-headed.
I think so which is why I wish the 'Yank' would stop doing it.
The Empire had it's impulsive youth and now dodders.
Not dodders, its dead.
The Republic has a way to go till it matures.
Could be but I think it may well die in adolescence.
Bear with us (like you all have any damn choice... :D ).
Always do and don't really care either way.
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Arising_uk
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Post by Arising_uk »

henry quirk wrote:Lord, the 'swiss model' is the last thing I want.
Why? It's private insurance and allows one to shop where one likes, positively capitalist? It's also loads cheaper than yours and has better outcomes across the board.
"You think you could pay for cancer treatment or some other life-threatening illness or major surgery dur to an accident?"

Yep, and I've already explained how.
But from what I understand such treatment would costs many tens of thousands of dollars just in the first year even if you shop around, lucky you if you have that kind of spare cash? And from what I understand serious accident and emergency care is also prohibitively expensive, in the hundreds of thousands in very serious cases.
How so?
If you can't afford the cost you may well die and leave them unsupported.
With a disease, I shop around. With major accident, I go to an emergency room (and get the bill in the mail [which I pay]).
A possible hundred thousand or more? Good luck to you.
Yeah, I think I am.
Nah! I haven't seen you shouting USA #1 here and I've seen some of what you've read.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Why? It's private insurance"

As I understand it: it's mandatory (like the ACA was until recently). In other words: folks who should butt out, don't butt out, assume they know what's best and impose a solution that can't possibly suit every one.

#

"It's also loads cheaper than yours and has better outcomes across the board."

A well-appointed cage is still a cage.

#

"But from what I understand such treatment would costs many tens of thousands of dollars just in the first year even if you shop around, lucky you if you have that kind of spare cash? And from what I understand serious accident and emergency care is also prohibitively expensive, in the hundreds of thousands in very serious cases."

There's some truth there, but: risk -- what is or is not acceptable -- is an individual matter...simply: for me to be who and what I am, I must accept certain risks...trading myself off to negate risk is an unacceptable price. Very much it's like the balance between security and freedom: the more you skew toward one, the less you have of the other. My set point -- where I strike the balance -- obviously favors freedom (and accepting, what might be for others unacceptable, risk).

#

"If you can't afford the cost you may well die and leave them unsupported."

Possibly...that pesky 'risk' again...unavoidable, I think, even if minimized in the extreme.

#

"I haven't seen you shouting USA #1 here"

That's cuz I see no point in stating the obvious.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 am There is a struggle going on for the soul of America. Should Americans struggle to regain the principles it was founded upon or seek to transform it into a statist utopia as suggested by others such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton
"We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them."
― George Orwell, 1984

"God bless the America we are trying to create." Hillary Clinton

"We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America." - Barack Obama, October 30, 2008
Is freedom really so repulsive? Is the Declaration of Independence really obsolete? I may be old fashioned but it makes good sense to me.

Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Are those like Alexis de Tocqueville really so misguided that they need to be reeducated by secular progressive experts dedicated to the transformation of America and the loss of the American soul? Does what he wrote really seem so absurd to you? Are you willing to defend Hillary and Obama’s dream of the transformation of America into statist slavery? I’d like to read on what basis you prefer to live under statist slavery as opposed to freedom?

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

“Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
So now we can see the struggle for the future of America is coming to a head. Biden represents all the attractions of Marxism and BLM supplies the force of intimidation. Trump invites us to remember the principles and ideals America was founded upon. This election will effect the future of America.
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 pm So now we can see the struggle for the future of America is coming to a head. Biden represents all the attractions of Marxism and BLM supplies the force of intimidation. Trump invites us to remember the principles and ideals America was founded upon. This election will effect the future of America.
It will only affect those who have not learned that politics is a racket. To the rational and competent human beings, an election is nothing but free entertainment, better than any sports event or circus, a competition to prove to the world which candidate is the biggest idiot and which can get the most drooling sycophants to vote for him.

You have no idea how entertaining this thread is.
Last edited by RCSaunders on Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:24 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 pm So now we can see the struggle for the future of America is coming to a head. Biden represents all the attractions of Marxism and BLM supplies the force of intimidation. Trump invites us to remember the principles and ideals America was founded upon. This election will effect the future of America.
It will only affect those who have not learned that politics is a racket. To the rational and competent human beings, an election is nothing but free entertainment, better than any sports event or circus, a competition to prove to the world which candidate is the biggest idiot and which can get the most drooling sycophants to vote for him.

You have idea how entertaining this thread is.
True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable
"When a man joins a political party, he submissively adopts a mental attitude which he will express later on with words such as, ‘As a monarchist, as a Socialist, I think that …’ It is so comfortable! It amounts to having no thoughts at all. Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Simone Weil
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:39 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:24 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 pm So now we can see the struggle for the future of America is coming to a head. Biden represents all the attractions of Marxism and BLM supplies the force of intimidation. Trump invites us to remember the principles and ideals America was founded upon. This election will effect the future of America.
It will only affect those who have not learned that politics is a racket. To the rational and competent human beings, an election is nothing but free entertainment, better than any sports event or circus, a competition to prove to the world which candidate is the biggest idiot and which can get the most drooling sycophants to vote for him.

You have idea how entertaining this thread is.
True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable
"When a man joins a political party, he submissively adopts a mental attitude which he will express later on with words such as, ‘As a monarchist, as a Socialist, I think that …’ It is so comfortable! It amounts to having no thoughts at all. Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Simone Weil
If philosopher Jacob Needleman is right, America was always meant to be a place where deep reflection and assessment of one’s values, motives, and potential could flourish. In his latest book, The American Soul: Rediscovering the Wisdom of the Founders (Tarcher), Needleman writes that “America was once the hope of the world,” and not just because it symbolized political liberty and freedom from want. “The deeper hope of America was its vision of what humanity is and can become.” He uses the writings and speeches of such icons as Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Lincoln to delineate his transformative vision of America.

But Needleman gives equal time in his book to what he calls “the crimes of America” — namely, our early legacy of slavery and the genocide of the Native American people. “To a great extent, the material success of America rests on these crimes and others like them,” he says. But he urges his readers to take stock of America’s virtues and failures in a way that might yield more telling sentiments than pride on the one hand or guilt on the other.

“The great wisdom,” he writes, “whispers to us from ancient times of another kind of confrontation with what is good and what is evil in ourselves; another kind of hope, compared to which that which we call optimism is dangerously naive and childish; and another kind of remorse, compared to which that which we call guilt is impotent and self-deceitful.”

The self-confrontation Needleman suggests is the kind of inner work that eventually yields more than just a new opinion of ourselves. It is the work that slowly but surely yields a new self entirely. Perhaps by such a process America itself might eventually achieve the potential that our Founding Fathers glimpsed. But the process will be tremendously more difficult than simply asking our spouses how we’re doing.
Self confrontation in a nation which now values self justifiction; I don't think it is possible anymore but if nothing else we can understand why humanity rejects liberty.
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:39 am True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable.
Most will never be free because they believe freedom is something conferred on them by society or some form of political system. But freedom is like everything else of value to a human being, it must earned and achieved by the individual who desires it. Freedom is available for any inivididual who chooses to make himself free, but very few ever will. The price of freedom is just too high for most. Freedom means being totally responsible for every aspect of one's own life, which is not what most people want. What most people want is security, guarantees, never having to face any risk, and the belief someone is their to pick up after them when they screw up their life. So they surrender their freedom to a government or some other collective system or ideology that promises them all those things and can't figure out why they do not feel free.
Belinda
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:50 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:39 am True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable.
Most will never be free because they believe freedom is something conferred on them by society or some form of political system. But freedom is like everything else of value to a human being, it must earned and achieved by the individual who desires it. Freedom is available for any inivididual who chooses to make himself free, but very few ever will. The price of freedom is just too high for most. Freedom means being totally responsible for every aspect of one's own life, which is not what most people want. What most people want is security, guarantees, never having to face any risk, and the belief someone is their to pick up after them when they screw up their life. So they surrender their freedom to a government or some other collective system or ideology that promises them all those things and can't figure out why they do not feel free.

Almost 90% of "every aspect of one's own life" is what we are thrown into. You did not choose your parents, your childhood, your native country, the truck that knocked you down, the colour of your eyes, most of the people you encountered during your life, the rules and regulations made by your employer, your native talents, prospects of employment if you are disabled or old, and who decides to buy what you produce.
People like me even struggle to be allowed to choose the time and manner of our deaths.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:50 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:39 am True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable.
Most will never be free because they believe freedom is something conferred on them by society or some form of political system. But freedom is like everything else of value to a human being, it must earned and achieved by the individual who desires it. Freedom is available for any inivididual who chooses to make himself free, but very few ever will. The price of freedom is just too high for most. Freedom means being totally responsible for every aspect of one's own life, which is not what most people want. What most people want is security, guarantees, never having to face any risk, and the belief someone is their to pick up after them when they screw up their life. So they surrender their freedom to a government or some other collective system or ideology that promises them all those things and can't figure out why they do not feel free.
As I see it, we are capable of two kinds of freedom: internal and external freedom. Internal freedom is our potential to be free of unwarranted fears and negative emotions such as vanity. External freedom is freedom from the effects of nature so as to cooperate with universal purpose..

If a person is wealthy and relatively free to do things, what good is what they do?. It seems that a person must become inwardly free so as to know what to do. Otherwise they are just reacting to fear and their negative emotions

Modern society preaches how to be externally free by imagining what they are doing satisfies the deeper needs of their being. It serves to compensate from being controlled by negative acquired emotions. Our saving grace is that negative emotions are learned and not inborn.

Jacob Needleman suggests that the inner work of self confrontation can lead to inner freedom and consequently to external freedom by allowing us to consciously act rather than mechanically react.

Does freedom require us to live alone? Could a doctor and a plumber ever cooperate through self confrontation to realize that they have two pieces of the whole leading to freedom rather than deny each other from the effects of their negative emotions?

The spiritual principles and values of America offered the potential to pursue such inner work in pursuit of freedom. IMO it doesn't exist now other than in small groups who have smelled the coffee and work together in their mutual wish to be internally free with the future goal of external freedom to cooperate with universal purpose..
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:34 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:50 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:39 am True politics corrupts; but what is the better alternative? Maybe there is none and political slavery is inevitable.
Most will never be free because they believe freedom is something conferred on them by society or some form of political system. But freedom is like everything else of value to a human being, it must earned and achieved by the individual who desires it. Freedom is available for any inivididual who chooses to make himself free, but very few ever will. The price of freedom is just too high for most. Freedom means being totally responsible for every aspect of one's own life, which is not what most people want. What most people want is security, guarantees, never having to face any risk, and the belief someone is their to pick up after them when they screw up their life. So they surrender their freedom to a government or some other collective system or ideology that promises them all those things and can't figure out why they do not feel free.

Almost 90% of "every aspect of one's own life" is what we are thrown into. You did not choose your parents, your childhood, your native country, the truck that knocked you down, the colour of your eyes, most of the people you encountered during your life, the rules and regulations made by your employer, your native talents, prospects of employment if you are disabled or old, and who decides to buy what you produce.
People like me even struggle to be allowed to choose the time and manner of our deaths.
100% of your life is whatever you have chosen to make of it. Whatever you are born with and whatever environment you are provided are only raw materials that cause nothing except what you choose to do with them.

Everyone likes to blame their heredity, their society, their childhood, and their experience for what they are, but they are just excuses for not doing the hard work of making something of one's life.
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:33 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:34 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:50 am
Most will never be free because they believe freedom is something conferred on them by society or some form of political system. But freedom is like everything else of value to a human being, it must earned and achieved by the individual who desires it. Freedom is available for any inivididual who chooses to make himself free, but very few ever will. The price of freedom is just too high for most. Freedom means being totally responsible for every aspect of one's own life, which is not what most people want. What most people want is security, guarantees, never having to face any risk, and the belief someone is their to pick up after them when they screw up their life. So they surrender their freedom to a government or some other collective system or ideology that promises them all those things and can't figure out why they do not feel free.

Almost 90% of "every aspect of one's own life" is what we are thrown into. You did not choose your parents, your childhood, your native country, the truck that knocked you down, the colour of your eyes, most of the people you encountered during your life, the rules and regulations made by your employer, your native talents, prospects of employment if you are disabled or old, and who decides to buy what you produce.
People like me even struggle to be allowed to choose the time and manner of our deaths.
100% of your life is whatever you have chosen to make of it. Whatever you are born with and whatever environment you are provided are only raw materials that cause nothing except what you choose to do with them.

Everyone likes to blame their heredity, their society, their childhood, and their experience for what they are, but they are just excuses for not doing the hard work of making something of one's life.
So if you are born severely autistic it's your own fault for not snapping out of it?
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:44 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:33 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:34 am

Almost 90% of "every aspect of one's own life" is what we are thrown into. You did not choose your parents, your childhood, your native country, the truck that knocked you down, the colour of your eyes, most of the people you encountered during your life, the rules and regulations made by your employer, your native talents, prospects of employment if you are disabled or old, and who decides to buy what you produce.
People like me even struggle to be allowed to choose the time and manner of our deaths.
100% of your life is whatever you have chosen to make of it. Whatever you are born with and whatever environment you are provided are only raw materials that cause nothing except what you choose to do with them.

Everyone likes to blame their heredity, their society, their childhood, and their experience for what they are, but they are just excuses for not doing the hard work of making something of one's life.
So if you are born severely autistic it's your own fault for not snapping out of it?
So you consider being autistic a fault?

If someone has a handicap (and 99% of those who claim them just have conditions others have without compliant and live quite successfully), does that mean someone is at fault?

If I have a physical defect that prevents me from doing at least the minimum necessary to sustain my own life, I will die. It has nothing to do with, "fault." It's just a fact.

If I am able to at least do enough to sustain my own life, and I don't, I will die, and that's my own fault.
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