Secular Spirituality

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marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:55 am

Reflex wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:52 am
"Secular spirituality." :lol: Gawd, I love oxymorons. :lol: Don't people use dictionaries anymore?
It's not an oxymoron. You would recognize this if you make time and effort to read and reflect rather than reflexively react.

Belinda
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:36 am

Marjoram Blues wrote:
Last night I watched BBC2 'Rome Unpacked', Series 1, Episode 2.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l64hd

It is about the spirit and history of Rome, specializing in off the track food and art.
The enthusiasm of the presenters can be a bit overwhelming at times - but the things you learn and see not available to the usual tourist, amazing.
Marjoram,you seem to tolerate "Wow!" exclaimed with manic persistence every second utterance. The presenters presented themselves far too much and their unfailing grins and cliche-ridden comments became wearisome. Rome was badly presented by an idiotic production, photographers excepted.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 am

Belinda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:36 am
Marjoram Blues wrote:
Last night I watched BBC2 'Rome Unpacked', Series 1, Episode 2.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l64hd

It is about the spirit and history of Rome, specializing in off the track food and art.
The enthusiasm of the presenters can be a bit overwhelming at times - but the things you learn and see not available to the usual tourist, amazing.
Marjoram,you seem to tolerate "Wow!" exclaimed with manic persistence every second utterance. The presenters presented themselves far too much and their unfailing grins and cliche-ridden comments became wearisome. Rome was badly presented by an idiotic production, photographers excepted.
:lol:
Not to mention 'Mamma mia!'
Yes, I know - I nearly didn't watch it because of their dominance. However, there are seriously good gems to be uncovered, so I grin and bear it. Each teaches the other something new.
And some Wows are merited.
It is linked to the OU, not an idiotic production, and I might send for the free material.

Perhaps mute it, until the point of interest I mentioned ??
The Damned Soul facing the Blessed Soul, about 6 feet apart - both sculptures in front of mirrors.
Giving rise to the sense of eternity, as thoughtfully exclaimed.
Close ups of Bernini's open mouth and tongue. The creative spirit of the tortured soul.
Wow! :wink:

I love to hear their conversation with the Roman vendors, etc.
Amo l'italiano 8)

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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:22 am

Reflex wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:52 am
"Secular spirituality." :lol: Gawd, I love oxymorons. :lol: Don't people use dictionaries anymore?
Ach mon, that's nae a real Scotsman!

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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:00 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 am
Fascinating to hear about how you were feeling ( an unusual sense of well-being) before a peak spiritual experience. I wonder what it was that fuelled this. Because it seems to me that that in itself is a feeling of spirituality. I begin to think that spirituality is a process of thinking and all types of thinking involve a movement, including motivation - emotion being the root of all.
Your 'cognitive feedback' would seem to tie in with Solomon's 'hallmark card phrase' in the title of his book:
' Spirituality for the Skeptic: the Thoughtful Love of Life'.

The Thoughtful Love of Life.
Heh, do Dubious and I have such a great connection or was it just unusual to see people just chatting? :)

In terms of brain chemistry, I expect that dopamine was involved. Maslow had a bit about to say about the practical triggers for PEs: http://www.intropsych.com/ch09-motivati ... ences.html

A nice bit of grounded advice from a guru here: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vM ... on&f=false

Belinda
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm

Greta wrote:
A nice bit of grounded advice from a guru here: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vM ... on&f=false
I read it Greta. Meditation: It puzzles me how it might be possible to lose one's sense of self preservation i.e. one's ego, and retain one's life. True, the moment is fleeting and never returns in its uniqueness. True, we cannot stop time and change . However the effort to conserve what allows us to stay alive is worth being neurotic about, unless one positively wants to die. I faithfully tried TM for eighteen months. I learned more about my shadows from intellectual introspection than I did from living in the moment.

I think that spirituality is about facing towards transcendent good. Transcendent good may or may not be imaginary but it's a worthy inspiration in all cases.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:57 pm

Greta wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:00 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 am
Fascinating to hear about how you were feeling ( an unusual sense of well-being) before a peak spiritual experience. I wonder what it was that fuelled this. Because it seems to me that that in itself is a feeling of spirituality. I begin to think that spirituality is a process of thinking and all types of thinking involve a movement, including motivation - emotion being the root of all.
Your 'cognitive feedback' would seem to tie in with Solomon's 'hallmark card phrase' in the title of his book:
' Spirituality for the Skeptic: the Thoughtful Love of Life'.

The Thoughtful Love of Life.
Heh, do Dubious and I have such a great connection or was it just unusual to see people just chatting? :)

In terms of brain chemistry, I expect that dopamine was involved. Maslow had a bit about to say about the practical triggers for PEs: http://www.intropsych.com/ch09-motivati ... ences.html

A nice bit of grounded advice from a guru here: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vM ... on&f=false
Ta, Greta. It's always uplifting to hear positive contributions being shared in an easy manner without hostility. Although, even the other kinds have their place in learning and development - perhaps it is the challenge that counts. Either way, it's all good...except when it's not :)

I have noted your links and will save for later. I appreciate Maslow but not so hot on cross-legged meditation.
Recently, I was on the prowl for an easy relaxation method for anxiety and discovered Chris Williams, Professor of Psychsocial Psychiatry, University of Glasgow, and President of the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies.

He is also a contributor to a book, ' Spirituality and Narrative in Psychiatric Practice - Stories of Mind and Soul'. The book grounds the abstract concept of spirituality via case stories. It shows how spiritual concerns/difficulties impact on, or can be included in a range of treatment options.
Problems include depression, anxiety, psychosis, psychiatry of old age and mentally ill offenders.
Chris Williams in chapter 7 - discusses 'Stories of fear: spirituality and anxiety disorders'.

Thus began my exploration into secular spirituality !!
Everyone has a story...

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:03 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm
Greta wrote:
A nice bit of grounded advice from a guru here: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vM ... on&f=false
I read it Greta. Meditation: It puzzles me how it might be possible to lose one's sense of self preservation i.e. one's ego, and retain one's life. True, the moment is fleeting and never returns in its uniqueness. True, we cannot stop time and change . However the effort to conserve what allows us to stay alive is worth being neurotic about, unless one positively wants to die. I faithfully tried TM for eighteen months. I learned more about my shadows from intellectual introspection than I did from living in the moment.

I think that spirituality is about facing towards transcendent good. Transcendent good may or may not be imaginary but it's a worthy inspiration in all cases.
Can you say more about what you mean by 'transcendent good', please.
Also, I'd be interested to hear about your experience of 'intellectual introspection'.
What did it involve?
Thanks.

Reflex
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Reflex » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:55 am
Reflex wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:52 am
"Secular spirituality." :lol: Gawd, I love oxymorons. :lol: Don't people use dictionaries anymore?
It's not an oxymoron. You would recognize this if you make time and effort to read and reflect rather than reflexively react.
That answers my question. :mrgreen:

Note: I didn’t say a secular person can’t also be spiritual, but secularism is not spiritual by definition. But it seems clarity doesn’t matter nowadays so long as everyone is in agreement. :roll:

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:45 pm

Reflex wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:55 am
Reflex wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:52 am
"Secular spirituality." :lol: Gawd, I love oxymorons. :lol: Don't people use dictionaries anymore?
It's not an oxymoron. You would recognize this if you make time and effort to read and reflect rather than reflexively react.
That answers my question. :mrgreen:

Note: I didn’t say a secular person can’t also be spiritual, but secularism is not spiritual by definition. But it seems clarity doesn’t matter nowadays so long as everyone is in agreement. :roll:

Clarity always matters, especially on a philosophy forum where not everyone is in agreement with their understanding or interpretation of a word or concept.
My response to you was accurate re the term 'secular spirituality' not being an oxymoron.
Your response is to turn green, roll your eyes and change focus.

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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:39 am

marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:57 pm
Greta wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:00 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 am
Fascinating to hear about how you were feeling ( an unusual sense of well-being) before a peak spiritual experience. I wonder what it was that fuelled this. Because it seems to me that that in itself is a feeling of spirituality. I begin to think that spirituality is a process of thinking and all types of thinking involve a movement, including motivation - emotion being the root of all.
Your 'cognitive feedback' would seem to tie in with Solomon's 'hallmark card phrase' in the title of his book:
' Spirituality for the Skeptic: the Thoughtful Love of Life'.

The Thoughtful Love of Life.
Heh, do Dubious and I have such a great connection or was it just unusual to see people just chatting? :)

In terms of brain chemistry, I expect that dopamine was involved. Maslow had a bit about to say about the practical triggers for PEs: http://www.intropsych.com/ch09-motivati ... ences.html

A nice bit of grounded advice from a guru here: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=vM ... on&f=false
Ta, Greta. It's always uplifting to hear positive contributions being shared in an easy manner without hostility. Although, even the other kinds have their place in learning and development - perhaps it is the challenge that counts. Either way, it's all good...except when it's not :)

I have noted your links and will save for later. I appreciate Maslow but not so hot on cross-legged meditation.
Recently, I was on the prowl for an easy relaxation method for anxiety and discovered Chris Williams, Professor of Psychsocial Psychiatry, University of Glasgow, and President of the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies.

He is also a contributor to a book, ' Spirituality and Narrative in Psychiatric Practice - Stories of Mind and Soul'. The book grounds the abstract concept of spirituality via case stories. It shows how spiritual concerns/difficulties impact on, or can be included in a range of treatment options.
Problems include depression, anxiety, psychosis, psychiatry of old age and mentally ill offenders.
Chris Williams in chapter 7 - discusses 'Stories of fear: spirituality and anxiety disorders'.

Thus began my exploration into secular spirituality !!
Everyone has a story...
We each find out own way, if so inclined.

The connection between religion and mental illness, especially schizophrenia, is striking. Spirituality has great power and, if misdirected, it's easy to hurt yourself. Ditto the electricity mains :)

Spirituality is a capacity, a human potential that comes from engaging with reality in a fuzzy, holistic manner rather than mostly mentally; rhapsodising rather than analysing. Spontaneity is a major part of it. Being "there" in the moment (which I have always been terrible at, which is why it interests me).

Some people are so attached to logic, sensibleness and practicality that they find it distasteful to "let go", aside from accepted conventional areas of release like sex and thrillseeking. So they contain their own capacity to rhapsodise, to become carried away - and then they scoff at believers for rhapsodising (because what feels right on the inside can appear silly from the outside). It's a bit like the cool kids sitting at the school dance, laughing at those on the dance floor. Like a music critic flaying an artist. The doer and the thinker - completely co-dependent yet always downplaying the value of the other.

In a eusocial society, you need both types - and any other types too. We need hard-headed gatekeepers and cynics who try to keep everyone grounded and honest. We also need maniacs to inspire and amuse. It seems to me that humans are not yet accustomed to eusocial life, certainly not westerners. We seem to still expect each person to be a founded "Swiss Army Human", capable of many things, and then judge others' supposed shortfalls.

In modern societies where people must specialise, lack of balance on an individual level is to be expected. Balance is largely only achieved on a collective level, as is the case with ants and bees. Polymaths, truly rounded individuals, are increasingly the exception. They are not so needed in societies with so many coordinated specialist functions. Unless they become entrepreneurs or small businesspeople, such gifted and rounded people will tend to be frustrated with their neglected potentials.

There is a sense of mourning for what's been left behind in this progression from small group generalists to modern large group specialists, just as a startup enterprise will always lose its soul when it adds increasingly dispassionate elements as it grows - accounts, HR, records. Remember Google's "Do no evil?". I love the idea, but once a business builds up its teams of executives, lawyers and accountants to cope with the cut-throat competition of big biz, then they either become "evil" or they become victim of a hostile takeover. So today they are expert in tax "minimisation". Ditto politicians. Plenty of them start with laudable aims but ...

Hardline ideologues of any stripe are modern society's fakirs, maintaining a strict and unusual philosophical position, which is treated as a matter of moral strength. Too serious and determined to remain focused to waste time with superstitious frippery. Good on 'em :)

Belinda
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Belinda » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am

Greta, regarding your post above. Could you extend your thesis to include the arts/ sciences split? Or not?
I ask because scientists and mathematicians rhapsodise (nice word Greta) about those specialisms. You yourself are spiritual about several issues that are the province of science.

Is the dichotomy more to do with banality/ vision than arts/sciences? I think that we have to differentiate between labile emotionality and spirituality.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:06 pm

Greta, one thing which stayed in my mind after reading your substantial post was:
the capacity to rhapsodize, to get carried away - and how some might downplay this or even scorn others for having a higher degree of passionate enthusiasm.
Emotions having less value, to their way of thinking, than rationality.
And yet, it is desire that stirs many to achieve imaginative,creative achievements in any field or discipline you care to imagine. I wonder what is felt throughout this process, at the same time as rigorous analysis is taking place.

The passion for discussion about life, the universe and everything which inspires art, humour, science - you name it.

Anyway, the word 'rhapsody' caught my attention. And yes, I admit to a feeling of discomfort.
It sounded over the top. And I can understand why some more logic- oriented, less emotional sorts might be uncomfortable with thinking of themselves as 'spiritual' beings. Indeed, you don't need to self-describe as such - just as nobody goes around describing themselves as 'material' or 'mental'.

However, it is worthwhile trying to see humans as holistic: body, mind and spirit. One of our objectives being to try to keep a sense of, if not actual, well-being.
For some, this might be to switch off from the stress of daily living and play, listen or dance to music - whether it's rap or rhapsody.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynEOo28lsbc

The spirituality and sense of being at one with world, even available to critics:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_in_Blue

'Tuttis are too long, cadenzas are too long, the peroration at the end loses a large measure of the wildness and magnificence it could easily have had if it were more broadly prepared, and, for all that, the audience was stirred and many a hardened concertgoer excited with the sensation of a new talent finding its voice.... There was tumultuous applause for Gershwin's composition.[10]
Last edited by marjoram_blues on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:20 pm


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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:42 am

I think you could be right. I might look into this further to try and improve my own writing. All the better to relay information and relate to others. At times, to be concise it may sound abrupt. At others, it could reflect emotional state !

However, it is tone according to wiki.
'Two styles, closely related and not mutually exclusive, tend to be used for Wikipedia articles.
The tone, however, should always remain formal, impersonal, and dispassionate...'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped ... r_articles
Sounds like they could do with your help to improve that entry.

Either way, it seems we differ in subjective appreciation of the article. I guess we sometimes pick out bits we find important to ourselves and disregard the rest. The same with writers of an article.
The good thing about wiki is its collaborative spirit, if there is a problem with content, style or tone then it can be corrected.

I guess I took your tone to be dismissive of the article and the topic as a whole. Something I wanted to correct. Again, the final sentence containing subjective view rather than giving more context as per article.

Interesting to consider the spirit with which we both take to and from any text.
Thanks for making me think further about this.
Whether it was tone, style or whatever that did not allow me to embrace the content of the article, I don't put in doubt that the content does reflect what "secular spirituality"is all about. I guess that means that as a secularist, humanist and atheist, I cannot endorse this "secular spirituality" thing.

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