Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Impenitent
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Impenitent »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:51 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:34 am Nick_A wrote:
Reason is amoral. It defines a relationship between premises and conclusions based on these premises.
Reason is amoral but there are ethical moral systems and ethical personal acts based upon reason.
True, a robot bases his acts upon reason but we are not talking about robots but natural men who are by nature sympathetic.
Do you really believe in ethical moral systems. If so, how do you explain the power of the demagogue?
The secret of the demagogue is to make himself as stupid as his audience so they believe they are clever as he. Karl Kraus
The mobs participating in the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, and the genocide in Sudan didn't seem so sympathetic. Collective humanity is governed by the need for prestige; not ethical moral systems. That is why we need scapegoats to blame for what we are.
or manifest destiny

-Imp
Belinda
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
Do you really believe in ethical moral systems. If so, how do you explain the power of the demagogue?
The secret of the demagogue is to make himself as stupid as his audience so they believe they are clever as he. Karl Kraus
The mobs participating in the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, and the genocide in Sudan didn't seem so sympathetic. Collective humanity is governed by the need for prestige; not ethical moral systems. That is why we need scapegoats to blame for what we are.

Some moral systems are better than others. There are some moral systems which I dislike but tolerate. Some other moral systems I'd actively contend with.

Religious people say that man is "fallen", and one can see evidence of fallen man all around including the evidence that you name. Despite evil deeds men are naturally sympathetic . But when men have been brutalised by cruelty and neglect their natural sympathy is overtaken by fear often in the form of desperate search for "prestige" as you say. Such fear-ridden, fallen men, can be enlisted among the hordes of wrong doers.

Those people whom you call "secular progressives" have better moral codes than do religious fundamentalists. Religious fundamentalists believe that it's wrong to deviate from a written holy book. Liberal religionists understand that a holy book is in actual fact interpreted variously by whichever individual reads it. I don't think that you , Nick, are fundamentalist towards the Holy Bible so much as fundamentalist towards some other book or books of rules and explanations . Perhaps you are also a Biblical literalist and fundamentalist--are you?
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
Those people whom you call "secular progressives" have better moral codes than do religious fundamentalists. Religious fundamentalists believe that it's wrong to deviate from a written holy book. Liberal religionists understand that a holy book is in actual fact interpreted variously by whichever individual reads it. I don't think that you , Nick, are fundamentalist towards the Holy Bible so much as fundamentalist towards some other book or books of rules and explanations . Perhaps you are also a Biblical literalist and fundamentalist--are you?
I’ve learned that all you are describing concerning human reactions are an effect corresponding with the quality of collective human “being”. We are not the cause; we are an effect just as life in the jungle is an effect.

I don’t think you understand the purpose of the Bible and the use of techniques to touch the inner man. The Bible is a psychological document rather than a historical document and written to include several layers of meaning which will correspond with a person’s understanding. It includes both literal truth and the means to arouse psychological truth. In short, the New Testament is a work of high art dedicated to the human potential for the New Man.

I am neither a literalist or a fundamentalist; rather I am an esotericist appreciating the reality of the fallen human condition in the context of consciously evolving towards becoming the New Man.

People who agree with these ideas have no reason to cast blame or create scapegoats. They know we are an effect and as such everything essentially repeats. The trouble is that it is far more egoistically satisfying to create scapegoats rather than make the necessary efforts to know thyself which leads to psychological freedom.
Belinda
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote;
I don’t think you understand the purpose of the Bible
Whose purpose? Bibles are inanimate objects and cannot purpose anything. Even your own Bible, Nick, is inanimate. It is you yourself who purposes.
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:54 pm Nick wrote;
I don’t think you understand the purpose of the Bible
Whose purpose? Bibles are inanimate objects and cannot purpose anything. Even your own Bible, Nick, is inanimate. It is you yourself who purposes.

What is the purpose of a saw? It doesn't create its own purpose yet it has a purpose. The purpose of sacred scripture is to serve awakening to the potential for human being. It cn only be written with the ability to transmit its purpose by those who have experienced the potential for their being.
“The greatest responsibility of all: the transmission of the mystery.”
—Basarab Nicolescu
Only partially awakened people are capable of transmitting it and only those who need it are capable of receiving it
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta »

Humanity isn't "fallen", rather all evidence shows that humans have advanced in every area extraordinarily since our primitive and savage beginnings not so long ago.

I would be interested to know what age of humanity was "higher" than today's, and in what way. I can think of no time and place that was better in any way (aside from environmentally, and that was only due to lack of capability, not additional care).

Nick, please answer this without accusations of "you can't do this" or "you can't think that" or "this is typical of secular progressives". If you could respond to me as though I was a human rather than a "secular progressive" it would be appreciated. Thanks.
Belinda
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Belinda »

post_id=348749 time=1518116083 user_id=12709]
Nick wrote;
I don’t think you understand the purpose of the Bible
(Belinda)Whose purpose? Bibles are inanimate objects and cannot purpose anything. Even your own Bible, Nick, is inanimate. It is you yourself who purposes.

(Nick)

What is the purpose of a saw? It doesn't create its own purpose yet it has a purpose. The purpose of sacred scripture is to serve awakening to the potential for human being. It cn only be written with the ability to transmit its purpose by those who have experienced the potential for their being.
[/quote]

(Belinda)
What someone purposes to do with a saw depends upon what they have learned to do with a saw. Similarly with any text.You have learned that something I have not, and I have learned something you have not.
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:23 am Humanity isn't "fallen", rather all evidence shows that humans have advanced in every area extraordinarily since our primitive and savage beginnings not so long ago.

I would be interested to know what age of humanity was "higher" than today's, and in what way. I can think of no time and place that was better in any way (aside from environmentally, and that was only due to lack of capability, not additional care).

Nick, please answer this without accusations of "you can't do this" or "you can't think that" or "this is typical of secular progressives". If you could respond to me as though I was a human rather than a "secular progressive" it would be appreciated. Thanks.
It depends upon how you define higher and lower. Most define higher by materialistic progress. A minority define the higher by the collective awareness of the Source of our existence and the laws which enable and sustain this awareness.

If Atlantis existed it surely had a collective higher understanding. I also believe in pre-sand Egypt societal understanding was higher than it is now even though the pragmatic materialistic goals motivating us now are far more powerful
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:52 pm
Greta wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:23 am Humanity isn't "fallen", rather all evidence shows that humans have advanced in every area extraordinarily since our primitive and savage beginnings not so long ago.

I would be interested to know what age of humanity was "higher" than today's, and in what way. I can think of no time and place that was better in any way (aside from environmentally, and that was only due to lack of capability, not additional care).

Nick, please answer this without accusations of "you can't do this" or "you can't think that" or "this is typical of secular progressives". If you could respond to me as though I was a human rather than a "secular progressive" it would be appreciated. Thanks.
It depends upon how you define higher and lower. Most define higher by materialistic progress.
No, they define that as "more advanced". Morally our advancement has probably been even more dramatic. Throughout most of history paedophilia and rape have been fairly normal in many cultures. Yet in most societies today these cruelties are rightly seen as abhorrent.

There has been huge improvement in humanity every area barring the environment, and that's only due to the ancients' lack of capability, not morality. There is not a single time in history that I would consider more moral and decent than the modern age.
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A »

(Belinda)
What someone purposes to do with a saw depends upon what they have learned to do with a saw. Similarly with any text.You have learned that something I have not, and I have learned something you have not
.

Would you agree that the intent for creating a wood saw was to saw wood? Granted, a person could learn that it can also be used to saw someone’s head off but this was not the purpose for the saw’s creation.

You won’t like it but you inspired me to just post the “Prostitution and Eternal Values” thread concerning the justified corruption of eternal values into pragmatic values. We’ve all learned something but are they equal in relation to acquiring a human perspective?.
Belinda
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote:
Would you agree that the intent for creating a wood saw was to saw wood? Granted, a person could learn that it can also be used to saw someone’s head off but this was not the purpose for the saw’s creation.
What the author, editor, or recorder purposed by his text is not the measure of what the reader understands by that text.

Similarly if you buy a wood saw there is no law that dictates you must saw wood with it. You may want to play a tune on it.
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