He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

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Darkshad3
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He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Darkshad3 »

He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

As truth is only perceptual, so we each of us have our own personal notion of truth, he whom cannot lie cannot be human. This taking it of course that truth is being referred to with a capital "T".
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by duszek »

I would correct the statement and say:

He who does not know what a lie is does not know what truth is.

He who cannot lie himself but is able to recognize the lies of other people knows what truth is.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Some people are not good at lying no matter how hard they try. They are not good actors either, they are always honest and sincere.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

I would agree with that, not as a correction but as a separate statement. Bare in mind, it may be possible to fill a page with philosophical sentiments around this, all equally of merit. Your contribution is perhaps a little obvious to everybody already however. Is it philosophically progressive , for that is its measure. You are forgetting the fact that what may be the truth for one person may be a lie for another, that which is true has no absolute value, and neither also that which is a lie. They are perceptual, as indeed everything else which we experience, or otherwise think that we have. We experience the world not as an extension of the same identical person/persons, which we`d have to for truth to be a constant, but as individuals, and as individuals to varying degree. For some of us, and accidents do happen, norms can be experienced as total absurdities, black as white, and, in the unfortunate event of having suffered early sexual abuse, even love as hate.
I shall be attempting another physical world record this Sunday, YouTube, Kates David, and in my mid sixties.

What Zera is alluding to is that truth is an experience/exists as the experience of truth, so therefore, an inability to lie rendering oneself effortlessly beyond temptation, and without temptation to grapple with there exists no concept of truth to gaze out upon, for it is internalized, where no more approachable than one`s capacity to define one`s own being.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by lesley_vos »

The truth itself wouldn't exist without lie. it's like with good and evil: good wouldn't be good if there wasn't evil.

it doesn't mean that one should lie to understand what's the truth. but he should know what's the lie to separate it from the truth. the problem is, both truth and lie are perceptual.
Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

That`s correct, for good would be replaced by universal spontaneous functionality, our responses one with another would be no more than a well rehearsed reflex, like a heart beating. As a term, no, the term would be both pointless and meaningless, and again here on this level too, none of us would be capable to operate on a higher level than subconscious reflex, not if we were to remain human in any event.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Viveka »

He who knows the truth is in full comprehension of the lie, as it is what is false as compared to the veracity of truth. - Viveka
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

No, not necessarily, this depends entirely on one`s definition for knowing the truth. One can in a real sense know/experience that which is a part of them, and can be familiar with it simply on account of living in it, of it being an intrical part of them. It can be said to be known when on this level, even when with nothing to define it apart. It would necessarily be understood as apart from falsity, for basic reasoning alone would take us there. Of it having an actual life of its own, not, for its experience would be unknown. However, one as a human would remain aware that the alternative is to lie, this even should one have no comprehension of the experience of so doing. WE would still possess the ability to reason.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Is that true of lying down as well?
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bahman
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by bahman »

Darkshad3 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
It means that you need to know the truth in order to lie otherwise what you said could be lie or truth.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

Darkshad3 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
It may well have been his meaning, it is n`t the meaning however, for we do n`t function in that way.
It should read, " He whom knows not a lie ( he whom would never lie) cannot experience the truth". Knowing and experiencing are of course two entirely different states of mind.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Darkshad3 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
The mistake we make is to find cognitive / corresponding / causational / correlational relationships between the two parts: "He who cannot lie" and "does not know what the truth is."

Nobody knows what the truth is (if you ask Plato, Socrates, and derivatives.) If you can lie, you don't know what the truth is, and if you cannot lie, you don't know what the truth is.

You may as well say, "He, who can't ride his bicycle underwater, does not know what the truth is."
"He, who cannot grasp the notion of God, does not know what the truth is." ( Careful... this is slippery.)
"He, who cannot eat peanuts, does not know what the truth is."
ETC.
Viveka
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Viveka »

Why do you think some people lie? Because they know it will be considered 'truth'. Hence, truth is prerequisite to lying. If one only knows the truth, one cannot lie. Ergo, lies require truth, and truth requires truth, thus truth is.
Last edited by Viveka on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Viveka
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by Viveka »

-1- wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:55 pm
Darkshad3 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:11 pm He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?
The mistake we make is to find cognitive / corresponding / causational / correlational relationships between the two parts: "He who cannot lie" and "does not know what the truth is."

Nobody knows what the truth is (if you ask Plato, Socrates, and derivatives.) If you can lie, you don't know what the truth is, and if you cannot lie, you don't know what the truth is.

You may as well say, "He, who can't ride his bicycle underwater, does not know what the truth is."
"He, who cannot grasp the notion of God, does not know what the truth is." ( Careful... this is slippery.)
"He, who cannot eat peanuts, does not know what the truth is."
ETC.
Thus there is no truth? That's absurd at best. There are self-evident truths, we just have to feel the breath under our nose to know them.
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Re: He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra) What?

Post by -1- »

Viveka wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm If one only knows the truth, one cannot lie.
Sure one can. I broke a vase. I know I will get out of being punished for it if I lie and say I did not do it. I know the truth, yet I can utter an untruth. There is not even magic behind this. This is bread and butter of child-rearing.
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