What makes your life yours?

For all things philosophical.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:21 pm

Viveka wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:49 pm
There's no point in even trying to debate Determinism because it's an assumption.
Well, it's an assumption, alright...but we have to give its proponents this much credit: that it is based on an observation that strict cause-and-effect seem to work many circumstances, and the extension of that to the speculation that maybe human experience is the same -- so it at least has some empirical precedents from which it can extrapolate. In fairness, we have to give it that.

But I think the situation of the Determinist is even worse than you imply when you say it's an assumption. The person who believes in some measure of free will, or at least in the human volition as a potential causal agent, can argue for her own view, and can also consider the possibility of Determinism, if she wishes; but according to his own creed, the Determinist cannot actually "consider" anything but what he is predetermined to think about. He has no choice about what he happens to believe. "Choice," according to his view, is just the name we give to determined forces we do not happen to understand.

So the person who believes in will can consider two views, and the Determinist cannot actually "consider" anything at all.

Viveka
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by Viveka » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:21 pm
Viveka wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:49 pm
There's no point in even trying to debate Determinism because it's an assumption.
Well, it's an assumption, alright...but we have to give its proponents this much credit: that it is based on an observation that strict cause-and-effect seem to work many circumstances, and the extension of that to the speculation that maybe human experience is the same -- so it at least has some empirical precedents from which it can extrapolate. In fairness, we have to give it that.

But I think the situation of the Determinist is even worse than you imply when you say it's an assumption. The person who believes in some measure of free will, or at least in the human volition as a potential causal agent, can argue for her own view, and can also consider the possibility of Determinism, if she wishes; but according to his own creed, the Determinist cannot actually "consider" anything but what he is predetermined to think about. He has no choice about what he happens to believe. "Choice," according to his view, is just the name we give to determined forces we do not happen to understand.

So the person who believes in will can consider two views, and the Determinist cannot actually "consider" anything at all.
Exactly! Why would the determinist not sit around and literally do nothing all day as opposed to making meaning? Their very belief in determnism denies the meaning that they could make in their life, which gives them no reason for action as opposed to literally doing nothing. Solipsism also does the same in lacking meaning. Why would I bother to speak to anyone due to their being a zombie or masquerade of my own mind? Also, IF solipsism is true, why do we not already know everything there is to know in this universe if it is simply a creation of our own minds?

surreptitious57
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:06 am

A determinist may not think free will exists but they still do not know the future. Every decision they take will not be known in advance
They might think the future is set but they are not aware of what it is till they experience it. This lack of advance knowledge could fool
a doubtful determinist into thinking that free will does exist. Although not knowing the future does not automatically mean that it does

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re:

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:41 am

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:45 pm
"This debate, then, comes down to a match between two extremes: the belief that I am master of fate, and the belief that fate eradicates any "me" that could choose."

Of course not. I, for example, say I own 'me' and am a free will. This means if I choose to cross the street, then I can make the effort (I choose, I do). Ain't nuthin' in there sayin' I'll be successful, nuthin' in there about mastery of anything. Me owning me, being an agent, won't stop a bullet or lightning or cancer. But, what gets shot, struck, or sick (that is, 'me') is mine which means I'm likely to fight harder to overcome the injuries than some one who sees himself as a domino (just a 'product of accumulative circumstance').
I agree that the full illusion of free will is fully developed in us, but these examples are merely add ons, you were going to cross the street anyway, the sense of you making a detached and independent decision so to do is required, or otherwise the conscious mind begins to be compromised. Add on consciousness is part and parcel of full consciousness. We make our decisions based on total experience, and circumstances regards crossing a busy road in the "here and now" are actually in the immediate past, thus adding, and far more significantly because they are immediate and of high order, life or death, to total experience. We simply respond accordingly. and in the environment of our conscious mind at work.

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henry quirk
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you may be a roomba but I'm not

Post by henry quirk » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:47 pm

"I agree that the full illusion of free will is fully developed in us..."

I don't know who you're agreeing with, but it ain't me...I say I'm a free will and that I'm real.

#

"you were going to cross the street anyway"

Not if I didn't have mind to, I wasn't.

William6
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by William6 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:09 am

When we believe that our life is ours,a certain comfort covers us. We must realize we have control. We must understand no ones opinion matter except our own.We are in control of every activities we are doing in our daily life.Nobody else is doing it for us.We breathe.We are in control of our breathe.Level of your thinking determines your level of life.Your thoughts turn into reality.Your choices decides your life.Feeling free about oneself is key to having control of ones life.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:17 pm

Will,

I own me and nuthin' in your post describes this self-possession.

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henry quirk
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from up-thread

Post by henry quirk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm

I make my life mine when I claim it, defend it.

I lose it when I turn myself over to others.

Self-owenership is a day-to-day exercise in vigilance.

Damned easy to give over with so many carrots dangled eveywhere...gotta be a zealot to be autonomous.

lesley_vos
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by lesley_vos » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Your choices. Those you can make and control. Unfortunately, there are not so many of them you can control, which means your life isn't actually yours...

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: What makes your life yours?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:39 pm

Everything that is one belongs to one, but whilst at the same time being the product of others. Your so called choices are a misconception, for they are all ordained.

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