Right to Bear Arms

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I own one gun (a Stoeger 12 gauge coach gun) which is a far cry from the 'arsenal' of 'assault rifes' every one cringes about.

And: I don't give a flip about 'freedom'...I care about my autonomy (responsible self-direction) and am impressed not at all by the angry demands I should think of the 'greater good'...I'm not the guy who shot up a concert, a school, a mall, a theatre, a campus...quite literally, I am innocent till proven guilty and won't be bulldogged into compromise or accommodation when I've done nuthin' wrong.

But whatever would apply to you would be the same for everyone. It might be you killed next time, or a loved one (if you have any). Stop being so self-absorbed and selfish. Or are you afraid you would fall into the category of loons and criminals?

[henry quirk]

I don't give a flip what the National Rifle Association has to say about any-thing or -one...I'm not a member...I don't read their propaganda.

I also don't give a flip what the talkin' heads on Fox News have to say...they're largely apologists and propogandists.

Also: I'm not a Republican (or Democrat); not a conservative (or progressive).

My notions about the subtle push for gun abolition come from the Left, from members of the Senate (like Saunders and Warren), from propagandists like MSNBC, CNN, HLN, the Times, the Post, etc.

Simply: it's not the conservative NRA spooking me about gun abolition but the proponents of gun abolition themselves, which, along with the folks above, include university professors, any number of organizations like ANTFA and Black Lives Matter, members of various state legislatures, and certain folks on the Supreme Court.

[henry quirk]

"But whatever would apply to you would be the same for everyone."

Again: yep.

#

"It might be you killed next time, or a loved one (if you have any)."

I might killed get by a knife, a car, a fist, a cancer, lightning, food poisoning, the flu, water, a fall, and on and on. Can't live in fear of all the damned possibles, Veg.

#

"Stop being so self-absorbed and selfish."

You see self-absorption where there's only self-interest and interest in the welfare of my loved ones.

#

"Or are you afraid you would fall into the category of loons and criminals?"

See, that's how out of whack things are...if I express a desire to self-rely, self-direct, self-defend, if I'm cynical of the motivations of folks who'd see me disarmed, if I just wanna be left alone, then I'm potentially a loon or criminal.

What's loony, to me, is the idea I should allow other folks to determine the direction and content of my living, that I should exist in a state of sacrifice to the greater good (instead of just sensibly cooperating with others to accomplish the concrete).

[Arising_uk]

Isn't it PC to want gun controls for Americans?

Surely it's up to Americans about whether they are happy with 33,000 per year of their citizens being killed one way or another by guns.

Still, not a surprising figure as given they kill 35,000 per year on their roads it's clear general intelligence is fairly low over there or they also have shit road laws.

[Walker]

Isn't it PC to want gun controls for Americans?

Surely it's up to Americans about whether they are happy with 33,000 per year of their citizens being killed one way or another by guns.

A Little Gun History Lesson
http://rense.com/general81/ligun.htm

[henry quirk]

Yep, it's very 'correct' to be pro-control, pro-abolition.

And that figure (33,000) is probably low...probaly closer to 50,000 annually (folks shootin' folks, folks shootin' themselves, accidental discharge, etc.)...pretty damned awful...and not a one of 'em connected to me and my coach gun...again, not seein' why I should be 'regulated' cuz of the bad and negligent acts of others.

It's like the employer who restricts the net usage of all employees cuz one was naughty and surfed for porn on the job.

Punish the guilty, not the innocent.

[henry quirk]

"Fishing, Flying, Hunting, Driving. All require licences in the USA."

Okay. Let's license/register guns/gun ownership.

Now, by current accounts, Paddock (the Vegas shooter) was a law abider with no history of mental illness who acquired all his guns legally.

If gun owners were required to license/register firearms (let's say a national registry had been set up, oh, ten years back) this means Paddock woulda lugged his registered weapons up to the 32nd and killed nearly sixty people and injuried over 500 others.

Licensing/registering guns/gun ownership would stop some crime, but it wouldn't have stopped Paddock (or other mass killers who were law abiders with legally acquired guns).

#

"Along with licensing there needs to be some regulation on what guns private citizens can own."

A good idea...about thirty years ago.

Today: there are more than 300 million people living in America, and there are enough guns (and attendant ammo) in the private sphere to arm each man, woman, and child several times over. Heavily regulate or out-right ban certain firearms and you'll have done nuthin' about all the examples of those regulated or banned weapons that are already out-and-about.

#

"Along with licensing and regulation/bans there can be gun buy-backs and severe penalties for those who won't give up the restricted weapons."

That might work. Some folks are quick to abide. They'll register when told to, sell back or hand in when told to. Some won't. Some folks reject the notion they should be restricted because of the bad acts of others. They won't register or license themselves or their firearms, they won't sell back or hand in. Quietly, they'll secure (hide) their guns and hunker down.

And, of course, criminals (Good Morning, Chicago!) won't abide either.

#

"Well, then there should be confiscations. Just outlaw all guns and take them".

Ah, now we get to the real goal, the true end-point. No doubt a great many law abiding gun owners will abide but then these good-intentioned folks were never the problem for the gun abolitionists. No, the problem for the abolitionists are the atavists, the self-relying, -directing types who aren't exactly criminals but might as well be.

Aside from the enormous public cost of organizing law enforcement (and mebbe the military) into a coordinated tool to search every residence, every business, every building, every person, for guns, I'm wonderin'' how the U.S. will absorb the enormous cost of what will be, practically, a civil war. East and west coasts will watch in horror as the whole of America's middle, from Canadian border clear down to the Gulf and Mexican border tears itself apart.

A war between folks who believe they own themselves and folks who believe that ownership can be safely nullified.

If you're in the states, pick your side now...shit will hit the fan sooner than you think.

If you're not in the states, sit back and watch the (upcoming) show...gonna be damned entertaining for you.

[Arising_uk]

A Little Gun History Lesson

German's unable to defend themselves against Nazi and Gestapo.

Given you kill more of your own citizens than any of the wars you've been in I see your approach a good example of thinning your herd. Me, I don't care if you wish to own guns but to make it a matter of freedom from oppression rather than just loving owning a gun is bollocks really. Personally I prefer living where there is little chance I can get machine-gunned by a fellow citizen on a rampage.

[Walker]

A Little Gun History Lesson

German's unable to defend themselves against Nazi and Gestapo.

Given you kill more of your own citizens than any of the wars you've been in I see your approach a good example of thinning your herd. Me, I don't care if you wish to own guns but to make it a matter of freedom from oppression rather than just loving owning a gun is bollocks really. Personally I prefer living where there is little chance I can get machine-gunned by a fellow citizen on a rampage.

"Given you kill .."

I never killed anyone, asshole.

Given that you mow down people with white vans, in cold blood, I wouldn't want to take a walk on that island.

[Walker]

Right to Bear Arms
The 2nd Amendment to the USA Constitution does not say:
'The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.'
It is quite plainly qualified:
"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State."
A rational person might assume this means the arms being for Militia use and regulated by them.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

If the militia owned the weapons, then the militia would be another governing body with the power to tyrannize, and the second amendment is in place to prevent just that sort of thing.

[Arising_uk]

I never killed anyone, asshole. ...

There's always time as you strike me as the type.

Given that you mow down people with white vans, in cold blood, I wouldn't want to take a walk on that island.

Take a look at your car statistics, 35,000 per year, I wouldn't drive there if I was you. I'll take a van over a sub-machine gun any day thanks.

[henry quirk]

"Me, I don't care if you wish to own guns but to make it a matter of freedom from oppression rather than just loving owning a gun is bollocks really."

Unfair and simplistic.

I've described in-forum how my home was broken into and how simply having my coach gun (pointed at the uninvited) dissuaded those young folks from takin' my stuff or hurting me. And, I've described how I hunt and feed mine with that coach gun.

No doubt, many gun users get a hard on from the gun, but not all of us. Some of us are responisble and practical and see the 'need' (are not merely satisfying a 'want').

[Walker]

I never killed anyone, asshole. ...

There's always time as you strike me as the type.

Why, because you're an asshole?

[Seleucus]

I'm pro-gun because I enjoy hobby shooting, and because it is important for safety against vigilantism and crime, and when traveling in rural areas. Traveling in convoy can be some protection against highway men, but there isn't always anyone going in the same direction, especially in remote parts.

[Walker]

Take a look at your car statistics, 35,000 per year, I wouldn't drive there if I was you. I'll take a van over a sub-machine gun any day thanks.

Cue the moron who says compared with that many deaths, massacre deaths are few, so what’s the hubbub?