Against Caffeine

For all things philosophical.

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Gloominary
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Gloominary »

thedoc wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:52 pm
Gloominary wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 pm Caffeine makes people more
Coffee effects different people differently. One size does not fit all.

I used to have my last cup of coffee right before I went to bed and didn't have trouble sleeping.
Coffee keeps me regular, without it I get constipated.

Most of your rant is just anti-coffee rhetoric and doesn't mean anything.
I would say it affects most people similarly, like all drugs.
Some people's sleep is affected more than others, but few, if any sleep better with coffee than without it.

Coffee used to give me diarrhea, for you it keeps you regular.
If you improved your diet and lifestyle, you probably wouldn't need a drug to keep you regular in the first place.
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gloominary
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Gloominary »

PauloL wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:03 am Satan's drink prevents Diabetes, Alzheimer, and Parkinson.
I seriously doubt that.
It also helps poor countries producing it.
Yea, more slave labor.
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PauloL
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by PauloL »

Gloominary wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:03 pm I seriously doubt that.
Check New England Journal of Medicine.
Yea, more slave labor.
You can even be part right, but cut money from coffee exportation.

Will those slave's life improve?
Gloominary
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Gloominary »

Greta wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:26 am As Nagle famously made clear, we cannot know what it's like to be another so guessing how any given drug will effect an individual is unreliable.
Few, if any are going to feel more awake and alert after consuming heroin, unless their withdraw is so bad, they need it just to feel normal, and likewise few, if any are going to feel sleepy after consuming a stimulant such as (crack) cocaine, coffee or methamphetamine.
There are depressants, stimulants and psychedelics, it's rare a depressant stimulates or a stimulant depresses.
There's rules and there's exceptions, but exceptions don't disprove rules, if they're few and far in between, which's broadly the case here.
That being said, some rules are harder and faster than others.
So it's best for individuals to decide for themselves what works best with their own minds and bodies.
A smart, educated community can sometimes know individuals better than they know themselves, or they may not want or need certain individuals in their community.
I'm not an individualist but nor am I a collectivist, rather there's times and places for degrees of both.
The issue with drugs is that we tend to be very visual beings and chemicals seem counter intuitive to us. For example, set alight a white powder like flour and you get a flame, set alight a similar looking white powder, mercury thiocyanate and you get the famous "Pharaoh's serpent" reaction, or mix two colourless liquids and you may get nothing, an explosion, brilliant colours, vapour or congealing. Chemistry is a black box to us humans, with only our relatively dull noses and tongues to guide us, hence another need for science and the scientific method.
Science is needed to some extent, but it can be corrupted, and no single institution has a monopoly on it.
We don't need science to tell us the sky is blue or the grass green.
Sometimes science can contradict common sense and likewise individual experience.
Science can say we tested x number of individuals under x conditions and 95% tested positive for X, but that doesn't mean everyone, or even most of the world's people will test positive for x.

Our senses do in fact tell us drugs are bad for us, not only do drugs smell and taste bad, but they make our lungs and stomachs feel bad, often they make our whole body feel bad immediately after use or during the comedown or withdraw.
Unfortunately we just don't listen to our bodies anymore, they've been desensitized from years of neglect and abuse.
Perhaps we'd even be able to tell whether a drug is going to stimulate or affect us based on smell and taste alone, if we were more in touch with ourselves.
Our senses are often keener and more in tune with the nature of things than we are, we don't need science as much as we think even.
Most afflictions can be treated by making changes to your diet, exercise and lifestyle without the use of drugs and their many 'side', or negative effects.
Given the odd relationship people have with chemistry and how little is known about the different ways individuals respond to different chemicals, it would be wisest to trust people's intuition and focus on educating people MUCH more about their bodies so they can make informed dosage decisions once they have found a helpful poison.
Science has become corrupted by big business.
It's also biased at its foundation, because of its underlying metaphysical and philosophical assumptions, such as materialism, reductionism, humanism, transhumanism and so on, intellectual elitism, belief in the supremacy of western institutions.
Science is more than method, it's an ideology.
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Walker
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Walker »

Gloominary wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 pm Caffeine makes people more ...
Proper caffeine effects require nicotine, and that’s a known fact. The state of consciousness edge between purity and toxicity is honed in that way, a method that used to be socially acceptable, before the regulators got into the act to improve the health of the body. We were just talking the other day about how the seats on commercial airliners used to have little ashtrays recessed into the armrests, sometimes on top and sometimes in the front. The no-smoking sign near the exit door would dim, the flight-mate would turn and say, mind if I smoke? It was a civilized situation and one could say yes or no, either would be accepted. Exhaust fans above the seats were as common as lighting, and many times the other would join in to share a smoke and a story or two, and when the cigarette burned to the end both went back to the luxury of their own, uninterrupted thoughts. The lady offers coffee first, no cold drinks. Coffee regular, coffee light or black. Rarely sugar. Nicotine calms the caffeine into a balance of perspective at times visionary, considering the myths of plans and destinations that have been mapped on coffee napkins. Look at Edison, subsisting on pie and coffee. Did anyone ever drive an Edison?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

PauloL wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:39 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 am [...] predisposed condition like HBP, liver issues, or low blood sugar.
What are you talking about? HBP? Liver? What's the effects??

If caffeine has any effect on blood sugar, it will raise it.
it's High blood pressure, and caffeine raises blood pressure; People with hepatic diseases can have a hard time processing it and it can stay in their bodies for dangerously long periods of time. Often it's alcoholics who have this disease.

Well, from what I can tell, apparently caffeine can raise or lower someones blood sugar having just looked it up again. It effects your insulin sensitivity as well as speeds up your metabolism, hence why it can help to prevent diabetes. I've only known one person who's gotten hypoglycemia from caffeine intake, and that was because he consumed very large amounts of it on an empty stomach and used it in addition to opioids, which may also effect blood sugar.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Odd sort of thread. Do you own a teabag factory?
Coffee is really good for you, especially your liver. Of course there are always going to be idiots who go overboard (as with everything) and drink 40 cups of it per day with added sugar etc. I doubt if the benefits apply to the instant stuff either (I think that's just coffee-flavoured cornflour).
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Walker »

thedoc wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:47 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 am You're correct to say that caffeine can worsen many mental pathologist, but it can also improve many of them. This really just needs to be at the leisure of the person to decide, because I've even heard some people with anxiety disorders say it helps them, especially those with social anxiety. Likewise, stress levels and migraines are commonly elevated by caffeine.

The truth is, caffeine is one of the most harmless and safest drugs to the known world. Even some of the claims of the fear mongers complaining about energy drink are pretty unfounded. The LD50 of caffeine is so incredibly high, the only risk it really poses is if you have a predisposed condition like HBP, liver issues, or low blood sugar. It has serious interactions with very few medications as well.
I had just the opposite effect, Sanka decaffeinated coffee used to give me the most intense migraine headaches. I stopped drinking decaffeinated coffee altogether and I haven't had a problem since.
I don't they're very common in men, but I've known some women who suffered, one had an interesting palliative. Although I can't remember what any kind of headache feels like, I've seen the suffering. Conclusion: caffeine is great.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

thedoc wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:32 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:18 am
thedoc wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:47 am I had just the opposite effect, Sanka decaffeinated coffee used to give me the most intense migraine headaches. I stopped drinking decaffeinated coffee altogether and I haven't had a problem since.
If you're replacing regular coffee with the decaff, you could just be getting a migraine from withdrawal of caffeine. If I suddenly stop or switch over to decaff from daily coffee use, I get migraines as well.
It wasn't withdraw, I did some testing to be sure, there was something in the Sanka decaffeinated that caused it, I have given up coffee completely and didn't have a reaction.
Interesting.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Walker wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:38 pm
Gloominary wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 pm Caffeine makes people more ...
Proper caffeine effects require nicotine, and that’s a known fact. The state of consciousness edge between purity and toxicity is honed in that way, a method that used to be socially acceptable, before the regulators got into the act to improve the health of the body. We were just talking the other day about how the seats on commercial airliners used to have little ashtrays recessed into the armrests, sometimes on top and sometimes in the front. The no-smoking sign near the exit door would dim, the flight-mate would turn and say, mind if I smoke? It was a civilized situation and one could say yes or no, either would be accepted. Exhaust fans above the seats were as common as lighting, and many times the other would join in to share a smoke and a story or two, and when the cigarette burned to the end both went back to the luxury of their own, uninterrupted thoughts. The lady offers coffee first, no cold drinks. Coffee regular, coffee light or black. Rarely sugar. Nicotine calms the caffeine into a balance of perspective at times visionary, considering the myths of plans and destinations that have been mapped on coffee napkins. Look at Edison, subsisting on pie and coffee. Did anyone ever drive an Edison?

Nice. Ironically the air in aeroplanes was cleaner and higher in oxygen before smoking was banned, something that it has been theorised contributes to the phenomenon of 'plane rage'.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Arising_uk »

Don't know how it works with us but spiders have a hard time with it compared to other drugs. :)

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Walker
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Walker »

Plane rage. Why not.

Biology and chemistry.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Yeah, quickest way to piss me off is to screw around with my coffee and my cigarettes.

Mind your own goddamned business, Gloom.

Go eat your veggies, drink purified water, shit on a schedule, think good thoughts, and leave us caffeine/nicotine addled folks alone.


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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

If we ever actually did ban caffeine, even for those under 18, the damage it would do to our economy would undoubtedly give prohibition a run for its money. The thing is caffeine isn't just in coffee, it's an ingredient in countless products like chocolate, teas, drugs, sodas, even cosmetics. This suddenly changes the game for multiple multi-billion industries, and all those manufacturers would now have to be regulated in this very specific regard. We'd have to revise our vending machines, restaurants, and all the products that are already produced.

The War on Drugs is a massive failure. To capitalize on that in this way would essentially be setting billions, maybe even trillions of tax dollars on fire. If you don't want kids to use it because you believe it's bad for them, the answer isn't to send them to jail for it. If you really feel like the evidence is on your side, it's education. That approach has worked with cigarettes in the past few decades.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Against Caffeine

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:51 pm If we ever actually did ban caffeine, even for those under 18, the damage it would do to our economy would undoubtedly give prohibition a run for its money. The thing is caffeine isn't just in coffee, it's an ingredient in countless products like chocolate, teas, drugs, sodas, even cosmetics. This suddenly changes the game for multiple multi-billion industries, and all those manufacturers would now have to be regulated in this very specific regard. We'd have to revise our vending machines, restaurants, and all the products that are already produced.

The War on Drugs is a massive failure. To capitalize on that in this way would essentially be setting billions, maybe even trillions of tax dollars on fire. If you don't want kids to use it because you believe it's bad for them, the answer isn't to send them to jail for it. If you really feel like the evidence is on your side, it's education. That approach has worked with cigarettes in the past few decades.
They would have to also ban Coca Cola (is it still called that?) Imagine the riots, and what would trailer trash put in their babies' bottles?
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