Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:04 am

I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX

ForCruxSake
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by ForCruxSake » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:36 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX
Surely it's their owners who should be held accountable? Was any attempt made to train the dog? Was the dog on a lead in a public place? If the dog was known to be a bit of a gnasher was he muzzled? Why was the dog free to attack a child? Who was meant to be looking after the child?

I feel sorry for the dogs and that they must be punished, sometimes severely, for following their nature. Sometimes they are complete and utter bastards because their owners are. Yes... I definitely blame the owners.

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:48 am

ForCruxSake wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX
Surely it's their owners who should be held accountable? Was any attempt made to train the dog? Was the dog on a lead in a public place? If the dog was known to be a bit of a gnasher was he muzzled? Why was the dog free to attack a child? Who was meant to be looking after the child?

I feel sorry for the dogs and that they must be punished, sometimes severely, for following their nature. Sometimes they are complete and utter bastards because their owners are. Yes... I definitely blame the owners.
I often wonder whether the owners understand responsibility in these situations. It seems that many are blind to the potential violence of their "pets."

PhilX

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Greta
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Greta » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:57 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?
Dogs cannot have the same rights and freedoms that humans do or we'll make hell for both them and us. I love the species but (because?) they do not have our capacity for reason, self control and understanding of an environment shaped by humans for humans. We bring a dog in a human community and we have parent-like responsibilities because the dog is almost as helpless as a child. Like children, when uncontrolled they can do much damage.

Unless there are strong extenuating circumstances, I'm fine with putting the dog down or having a male canine perp's nuts removed. A rule requiring neutering of all male dogs of a certain breed would be hard to enforce, made more confusing by cross breeds.

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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by ForCruxSake » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:38 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I often wonder whether the owners understand responsibility in these situations. It seems that many are blind to the potential violence of their "pets."

PhilX
Here in the U.K, when the Dangerous Dogs Act was legislated, in 1991, it was a knee jerk reaction to a spate of attacks on children. It covered mainly fighting dogs, like pit bulls or similar, which were originally bred to bait/fight bull for sport and then dogs, when the bull baiting/ fighting was made illegal in the 1800's. These dogs were bred with aggression, low pain threshold and to fight to the death. This was potential that could not be realised without training and trained dogs would not be trained to attack humans. Well trained fight dogs can have amazing relationships with people. However, in the modern age, they became status symbols for a certain type of male: your would-be and actual gangsters. Many were idiots and trained their dogs to be attack dogs, without operating the due care and consideration needed when taking these dogs out in public.

It's people that make these dogs bad. I'm not the greatest animal lover. I've met dogs I've adored but I'm not into all canines. I'm taking more the RSPCA's stance in response to the original bill, which they felt aggressively punitive to the animals and not punitive enough to the owners. The act was pushed through quickly, as a result of the media attention in response to the child attacks and regulates to fine owners, with a maximum penalty of two years should the owner's animal harm people. The dogs, of course, are put down should anyone get hurt. I'm not entirely certain of the following fact but I think it calls for all dogs, of the fighting breeds, to be neutered.

My teenage son was skating past a dog owner on his skateboard, recently, and must have startled the dog, a bull terrier of some kind, who jumped up and sank his teeth into his arm. The woman that owned him, had him on a leash, but it was an extendable leash and it was set too long. She did nothing, said nothing, to my son but walked on quickly. My son immediately took a picture of the wound and when I pointed out it might have been better to take a picture of the owner and the dog, the look on his face told me, "Yeah, but it's not as good to share that with my mates. This is more manly!"

We reported the incident to the police, over the phone, who advised we make a formal report and sent a police officer to our home to take an account of what happened. The police rep who took the call, was very keen we make a formal report. The call handlers aren't actually usually otrained officers. The trained officer who came round was much more jaded. The first words out of his mouth were, "I'll tell you now, this probably won't go very far." "Fair enough,"I said, "...but don't you think that its valuable you be given a description of both dog and owner if it happens again?" He took the interview as if he wasn't that convinced.

I wouldn't want a dog put down for biting a person that startled it, but if it was a repeat offender, that is different. That dog has not been trained well by its owner and may well be of some danger to the public. If the owner can't control it, it needs to be taken away, retrained if possible and put down, if too much of a danger.The Dangerous Dog Act did not provide for this kind of thinking. It's a shame because most pets have a therapeutic effect on their owners, possibly society as a whole by extension.

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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:48 am

ForCruxSake wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I often wonder whether the owners understand responsibility in these situations. It seems that many are blind to the potential violence of their "pets."

PhilX
Here in the U.K, when the Dangerous Dogs Act was legislated, in 1991, it was a knee jerk reaction to a spate of attacks on children. It covered mainly fighting dogs, like pit bulls or similar, which were originally bred to bait/fight bull for sport and then dogs, when the bull baiting/ fighting was made illegal in the 1800's. These dogs were bred with aggression, low pain threshold and to fight to the death. This was potential that could not be realised without training and trained dogs would not be trained to attack humans. Well trained fight dogs can have amazing relationships with people. However, in the modern age, they became status symbols for a certain type of male: your would-be and actual gangsters. Many were idiots and trained their dogs to be attack dogs, without operating the due care and consideration needed when taking these dogs out in public.

It's people that make these dogs bad. I'm not the greatest animal lover. I've met dogs I've adored but I'm not into all canines. I'm taking more the RSPCA's stance in response to the original bill, which they felt aggressively punitive to the animals and not punitive enough to the owners. The act was pushed through quickly, as a result of the media attention in response to the child attacks and regulates to fine owners, with a maximum penalty of two years should the owner's animal harm people. The dogs, of course, are put down should anyone get hurt. I'm not entirely certain of the following fact but I think it calls for all dogs, of the fighting breeds, to be neutered.

My teenage son was skating past a dog owner on his skateboard, recently, and must have startled the dog, a bull terrier of some kind, who jumped up and sank his teeth into his arm. The woman that owned him, had him on a leash, but it was an extendable leash and it was set too long. She did nothing, said nothing, to my son but walked on quickly. My son immediately took a picture of the wound and when I pointed out it might have been better to take a picture of the owner and the dog, the look on his face told me, "Yeah, but it's not as good to share that with my mates. This is more manly!"

We reported the incident to the police, over the phone, who advised we make a formal report and sent a police officer to our home to take an account of what happened. The police rep who took the call, was very keen we make a formal report. The call handlers aren't actually usually otrained officers. The trained officer who came round was much more jaded. The first words out of his mouth were, "I'll tell you now, this probably won't go very far." "Fair enough,"I said, "...but don't you think that its valuable you be given a description of both dog and owner if it happens again?" He took the interview as if he wasn't that convinced.

I wouldn't want a dog put down for biting a person that startled it, but if it was a repeat offender, that is different. That dog has not been trained well by its owner and may well be of some danger to the public. If the owner can't control it, it needs to be taken away, retrained if possible and put down, if too much of a danger.The Dangerous Dog Act did not provide for this kind of thinking. It's a shame because most pets have a therapeutic effect on their owners, possibly society as a whole by extension.
"I wouldn't want a dog put down for biting a person that startled it, but if it was a repeat offender, that is different."

Once is enough for me.

PhilX

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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by ForCruxSake » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:00 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:I wouldn't want a dog put down for biting a person that startled it, but if it was a repeat offender, that is different. That dog has not been trained well by its owner and may well be of some danger to the public. If the owner can't control it, it needs to be taken away, retrained if possible and put down, if too much of a danger.The Dangerous Dog Act did not provide for this kind of thinking. It's a shame because most pets have a therapeutic effect on their owners, possibly society as a whole by extension.
"I wouldn't want a dog put down for biting a person that startled it, but if it was a repeat offender, that is different."

Once is enough for me.

PhilX
I'd consider having the owner put down. :wink:

Walker
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Walker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:39 pm

Don’t bite the handler!

- What do you suppose is the logical end-point for this kind of attack?

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpor ... rity-check

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Arising_uk
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:58 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:... The woman that owned him, had him on a leash, but it was an extendable leash and it was set too long. She did nothing, said nothing, to my son but walked on quickly. ...
Not saying men aren't as bad but seeing this a lot in my area, women with bull terriers, staffies, etc who appear to have no idea how to control such powerful dogs. To top it off they've either got these useless extendable leads or those stupid harnesses which basically cause such breeds to pull in the first place and when trying to control them actually make the situation worse as they cause them to pull more and ramp up the aggression. Put a strong collar and short lead on and pull sideways for fucks sake!! :)

Oh! And no they shouldn't have the same rights unless they demand them. But they should have the right to be owned by competent owners, bring back dog-licencing and introduce compulsory training and a test to get said licence.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:59 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX
No one is positing the same rights.
Dogs have less understanding of the law than a 10 year old child (the age of legal responsibility), so the case just does not come up.
A dog cannot defend itself in court, give witness, nor offer mitigation.
Dogs are the responsibility of the owner in the UK. I am sure that applies in the US.

Dogs that attack are most often killed, and some breeds have been unfairly vilified through actions that are ultimately the responsibility of the owners are relate directly to bad upbringing and poor socialisation.

IN particular Rottweillers and Pit Bill Terriers have faced this sort of prejudice. Many "good" owners have been horrified at this as they have examples of these breeds that are safe and secure members of the family and can be trusted to have small children climbing all over them and pulling their tails without incident.
It all depends how you bring up dogs.

The US state has much to learn from dogs and their early years. Such lessons are even more effective when it comes to how we treat our fellow humans.
There are damn good reasons why the USA is the most criminal country on earth.

Walker
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Walker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:25 pm

Lay your concern on the kid's rights assaulted, with authority.

A kid has the right to not be felt up by some old man.

It's in the Constitution.

Should a dog have this same right?

No.

Reason? It would be too expensive to furnish a dog autowash for every owner/master, unless votes are involved. In that case, what's money? What's the Constitution?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:47 pm

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/man-charged-a ... 35019.html

I can't blame the guy for killing a suffering 15 year old dog, but obviously the entry test for Chiropractic study must be pretty low in Virginia. Burying the dog on the beach was pretty damn fucking moronic.

Walker
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Walker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:54 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX
No one is positing the same rights.
Dogs have less understanding of the law than a 10 year old child (the age of legal responsibility), so the case just does not come up.
A dog cannot defend itself in court, give witness, nor offer mitigation.
Dogs are the responsibility of the owner in the UK. I am sure that applies in the US.

Dogs that attack are most often killed, and some breeds have been unfairly vilified through actions that are ultimately the responsibility of the owners are relate directly to bad upbringing and poor socialisation.

IN particular Rottweillers and Pit Bill Terriers have faced this sort of prejudice. Many "good" owners have been horrified at this as they have examples of these breeds that are safe and secure members of the family and can be trusted to have small children climbing all over them and pulling their tails without incident.
It all depends how you bring up dogs.

The US state has much to learn from dogs and their early years. Such lessons are even more effective when it comes to how we treat our fellow humans.
There are damn good reasons why the USA is the most criminal country on earth.
Who can truly know the mind of any dog.

For that reason, who can morally trust a beast without morality, and without fear of repercussions upon its own being, caused by its own actions?

Only the Faithful can.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:57 pm

Walker wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I just watched over the news where a pit bull attacked a child. The state legislature is deliberating about what can be done, including neutering that type of dog.

I don't regard dogs as equivalent to humans in certain ways, but I do think they can be held accountable and should be treated accordingly.

What do you think?

PhilX
No one is positing the same rights.
Dogs have less understanding of the law than a 10 year old child (the age of legal responsibility), so the case just does not come up.
A dog cannot defend itself in court, give witness, nor offer mitigation.
Dogs are the responsibility of the owner in the UK. I am sure that applies in the US.

Dogs that attack are most often killed, and some breeds have been unfairly vilified through actions that are ultimately the responsibility of the owners are relate directly to bad upbringing and poor socialisation.

IN particular Rottweillers and Pit Bill Terriers have faced this sort of prejudice. Many "good" owners have been horrified at this as they have examples of these breeds that are safe and secure members of the family and can be trusted to have small children climbing all over them and pulling their tails without incident.
It all depends how you bring up dogs.

The US state has much to learn from dogs and their early years. Such lessons are even more effective when it comes to how we treat our fellow humans.
There are damn good reasons why the USA is the most criminal country on earth.
Who can truly know the mind of any dog.

For that reason, who can morally trust a beast without morality, and without fear of repercussions upon its own being, caused by its own actions?

Only the Faithful can.
Dogs are very moral beings. In a dog we see the roots of all morality which is common to all mammals.

PS appending "only the faithful can" to any shit you think of is no kind of an argument.

Walker
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Re: Should dogs have the same rights as humans?

Post by Walker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:03 pm

You're playing with the lives of innocents with your conceptual theories.

How arrogant.

How utterly, completely, obnoxiously, arrogant.

We realize that for whatever reason, you must be this way.

And on this side of the table ... spontaneous, effortless compassion ... ahhhh

And to that sir, what is your insult?

8)

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