Is Free will an illusion?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

bahman wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
How is this relevant to discussion of free will? Of course you ran after your emotions if you are in serious need. We normally don't decide in such a situation so the question of free will is irrelevant.
Are you kidding??
If we do not know what motivates us we have no way of assessing how the will is expressed.
You seem to live in some dream world where you think people only make decisions on matter with a cold hard rational analysis. This is so far from the truth it is possible to get.
No, you got me wrong. You are either under emotion rush or in a situation that you want to make a decision based on circumstances. The relevance of free will of course is matter of second case.
You are never free of your drives and motivations as this is exactly what informs your choices, and you are a fool to think that any but the most banal decisions are free from emotional input.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 4800
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by bahman »

Conde Lucanor wrote: You get yourself caught in a contradiction then:
I mean emotions affect prioritization but we do prioritize options using our intellect.
Conde Lucanor wrote: How come? I thought that was what you were trying to demonstrate, but it just shows circular reasoning: "prioritizing options means no free will because no free will is involved in prioritizing".
Because as it was illustrated in previous comment we prioritize options using our intellects.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 4800
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by bahman »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
bahman wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Are you kidding??
If we do not know what motivates us we have no way of assessing how the will is expressed.
You seem to live in some dream world where you think people only make decisions on matter with a cold hard rational analysis. This is so far from the truth it is possible to get.
No, you got me wrong. You are either under emotion rush or in a situation that you want to make a decision based on circumstances. The relevance of free will of course is matter of second case.
You are never free of your drives and motivations as this is exactly what informs your choices, and you are a fool to think that any but the most banal decisions are free from emotional input.
I didn't mean that emotions have no role in circumstances.
User avatar
Conde Lucanor
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: I mean emotions affect prioritization but we do prioritize options using our intellect.
It seems you're just playing with words. What's the difference between affecting prioritization with the intellect or with emotions? And why is the first one that counts? Humans are not machines moved by mechanical reflexes triggered by algorithmic processes.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 4800
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by bahman »

Conde Lucanor wrote:
bahman wrote: I mean emotions affect prioritization but we do prioritize options using our intellect.
It seems you're just playing with words. What's the difference between affecting prioritization with the intellect or with emotions? And why is the first one that counts? Humans are not machines moved by mechanical reflexes triggered by algorithmic processes.
Emotions, like other factors just have contribution on what we choose. The act of choosing is done by intellect. Do you want this more or that more? That is duty of intellect to answer such a question since emotion is only a tendency toward something.
User avatar
Conde Lucanor
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:
bahman wrote: I mean emotions affect prioritization but we do prioritize options using our intellect.
It seems you're just playing with words. What's the difference between affecting prioritization with the intellect or with emotions? And why is the first one that counts? Humans are not machines moved by mechanical reflexes triggered by algorithmic processes.
Emotions, like other factors just have contribution on what we choose. The act of choosing is done by intellect. Do you want this more or that more? That is duty of intellect to answer such a question since emotion is only a tendency toward something.
Choice implies some judgement and involves the intellect, but human action is much more than just reaction to neocortical instructions. Emotions surely will play a role in prioritizing, as they are drivers, they move you towards some options that you find more pleasing, even though you might be conscious that they are not the best choice. But let's not digress: whether only the intellect is involved or not, none of the situations listed lead to the conclusion that free will in an illusion. In fact, all the discussion reiterates the freedom behind every act.
User avatar
HexHammer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by HexHammer »

bahman wrote:1) Free will is ability to freely decide in a given situation
2) A situation is defined as a set of options
3) We prioritize our options using our rationality
4) We pick up the best option among prioritized options, so called rational decision making
5) From (2), (3) and (4) we can deduce that free will is an illusion
Most not-so-bright-people that means like 80% of all people doesn't have free will, so their choices can be predicted.
osgart
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by osgart »

it depends on the type of person you are and how aware of things you become through learnings. And the quality of what you learn. And your ability to conceive and be motivated by what truly matters. Free will is a realization and not automatic.
OuterLimits
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by OuterLimits »

bahman wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:
bahman wrote: I mean emotions affect prioritization but we do prioritize options using our intellect.
It seems you're just playing with words. What's the difference between affecting prioritization with the intellect or with emotions? And why is the first one that counts? Humans are not machines moved by mechanical reflexes triggered by algorithmic processes.
Emotions, like other factors just have contribution on what we choose. The act of choosing is done by intellect. Do you want this more or that more? That is duty of intellect to answer such a question since emotion is only a tendency toward something.
Duty is a mixture of belief and emotion, like the other considerations. You can't simply elevate "intellect" above the other considerations.
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by thedoc »

It depends on where you draw the line, which influences you allow as part of free will and which influences you claim negate free will. So far there is little agreement, and no definitive answer to that question, just a lot of ineffective speculation.
User avatar
Dunce
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:19 pm
Location: The European Union (48% of cats prefer it)

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by Dunce »

bahman wrote: 4) We pick up the best option among prioritized options, so called rational decision making
The best for who or what over what sort of time scale? For immediate pleasure? Long-term health? Bank balance? Those we have responsibilities towards? Those we love? A community? The whole human population? The next generation? The whole of life on Earth?

Bit of a subjective word, "best".
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 4800
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by bahman »

Dunce wrote:
bahman wrote: 4) We pick up the best option among prioritized options, so called rational decision making
The best for who or what over what sort of time scale? For immediate pleasure? Long-term health? Bank balance? Those we have responsibilities towards? Those we love? A community? The whole human population? The next generation? The whole of life on Earth?

Bit of a subjective word, "best".
You know what is the best once you prioritize your options. All the questions you asked are relevant when you want to prioritize the options.
OuterLimits
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Is Free will an illusion?

Post by OuterLimits »

bahman wrote:
Dunce wrote:
bahman wrote: 4) We pick up the best option among prioritized options, so called rational decision making
The best for who or what over what sort of time scale? For immediate pleasure? Long-term health? Bank balance? Those we have responsibilities towards? Those we love? A community? The whole human population? The next generation? The whole of life on Earth?

Bit of a subjective word, "best".
You know what is the best once you prioritize your options. All the questions you asked are relevant when you want to prioritize the options.
A very emotion-laden process.
Post Reply