Time does not exist.

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:10 pm

Belinda wrote: One objection might be that some people have faith in absurdities, absurd because as propositions they are impossible or defunct according to all current paradigms. Have you an answer to this objection, Hobbes'Choice?
Interesting question. I do not see a valid objection here.
Belief is inadequate, and people holding on to absurdities would be well to abandon them as soon as possible.
If they want to keep such things in mind as possibilities then that is fine, but accepting on faith ANYTHING as true shows mental deficiency.

Belinda
Posts: 2808
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Belinda » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:29 pm

Hobbes'Choice wrote:
but accepting on faith ANYTHING as true shows mental deficiency.
I'm afraid that I've misunderstood what I had thought that you previously wrote about maintaining a dichotomy between truth as propositional truth and truth as useful faith. Doubtless we agree that propositional truth is impossible because all 'truths' are contingent. I had understood that you thought that if a faith supports life then it's true.

OuterLimits
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by OuterLimits » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:59 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Belinda wrote: One objection might be that some people have faith in absurdities, absurd because as propositions they are impossible or defunct according to all current paradigms. Have you an answer to this objection, Hobbes'Choice?
Interesting question. I do not see a valid objection here.
Belief is inadequate, and people holding on to absurdities would be well to abandon them as soon as possible.
If they want to keep such things in mind as possibilities then that is fine, but accepting on faith ANYTHING as true shows mental deficiency.
As a champion of truth over beliefs, do you have anything about Descarte's reality problem ? or the problem of other minds? or the double slit experiment ?

prothero
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by prothero » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:26 am

Belinda wrote:I'm afraid that I've misunderstood what I had thought that you previously wrote about maintaining a dichotomy between truth as propositional truth and truth as useful faith. Doubtless we agree that propositional truth is impossible because all 'truths' are contingent. I had understood that you thought that if a faith supports life then it's true.
Terrapin Station wrote:That you consider it justified and that you judge it to be true. Neither of those requires certainty or proof. Again, it's best to just throw out any concern with certainty or proof, pro or con. Conceptualizing epistemology in those terms is a mistake in my view.
Londoner wrote:I don't think that makes sense, not even in the religious sense. How could one claim one 'believed' something, while also being aware that one had no reason for doing so? You would more likely say you had 'assumed' something. And I think that is what the religious use is meant to imply; 'faith' in the sense of putting your trust in something. It does not imply certainty, quite the contrary.
And isn't the problem with 'information', meaning something that furnishes knowledge, i.e. something that comes from outside ourselves, that we can never identify what that something is? We cannot be sure that anything in our heads comes from outside them, but we can be sure that nothing in our heads comes entirely from outside them. That knowledge, or what we call knowledge, is shaped by our existing consciousness and by what we have previously accepted as 'knowledge'.
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Belief has no place in my lexicon, except to demonstrate a faith held position.JTB is equivalent to knowledge. All knowledge is contingent on the information which furnishes it. Belief requires no justification but faith.
I think it makes more sense to draw a line between the two ideas. In the same way I prefer why to focus not on the hows but on intentionality.
The world is round (well roughly more than a square or flat). Is that a fact? A belief? An opinion? True? Knowledge? An assumption? Etc.
Language is imprecise and people often disagree about the proper usage of and the proper meaning of words.
How about evolution? (its essentials, natural selection, genetic variation, descent with modification) is that true? Is it knowledge?
The universe is deterministic? An opinion, a fact, an assumption, a theory, a belief, truth, knowledge?

Certainly there is a wide range of different degrees of justification for the various “conceptions” which people hold to be true, or knowledge, or facts. Often people do not agree on the facts much less on the theories, beliefs or opinions derived from them. The world is round seems a justified and true belief. Evolution likewise seems a justified and confirmed theory in its broad outlines. The deterministic nature of reality seems much less so, quantum physicists roughly divided between indeterministic and deterministic interpretations of their field. Treating time as physical spatial dimension (the spatialization of time) some would regard as factual but I regard it as a “fallacy of misplaced concreteness”. Trying to bring the discussion back around to the original beginnings.

I don’t think faith and belief are equated in common usage. Faith (usually used in a religious or fiduciary context) is a form of belief but belief has much wider user. For instance I might believe in the lochness monster, the abominable snowman and the Yeti but I don’t have faith in them.

Londoner
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Londoner » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:00 am

prothero wrote: The world is round (well roughly more than a square or flat). Is that a fact? A belief? An opinion? True? Knowledge? An assumption? Etc.
Language is imprecise and people often disagree about the proper usage of and the proper meaning of words.
How about evolution? (its essentials, natural selection, genetic variation, descent with modification) is that true? Is it knowledge?
The universe is deterministic? An opinion, a fact, an assumption, a theory, a belief, truth, knowledge?

Certainly there is a wide range of different degrees of justification for the various “conceptions” which people hold to be true, or knowledge, or facts. Often people do not agree on the facts much less on the theories, beliefs or opinions derived from them. The world is round seems a justified and true belief. Evolution likewise seems a justified and confirmed theory in its broad outlines. The deterministic nature of reality seems much less so, quantum physicists roughly divided between indeterministic and deterministic interpretations of their field. Treating time as physical spatial dimension (the spatialization of time) some would regard as factual but I regard it as a “fallacy of misplaced concreteness”. Trying to bring the discussion back around to the original beginnings.
I would put it that the meaning of words like 'fact', 'belief', 'opinion' etc. are understood in context. If we are doing astronomy then the shape of the world has been established as a fact according to the methods used in astronomy. But if we are doing philosophy, the same astronomers would probably admit that the methods used in astronomy (like empirical observation) could be questioned, so that the shape of the world is a belief. So it is pointless to try to nail down meanings to such words when they are quoted out of any context.

Regarding the original topic, surely the word that needs looking at is 'exist'. And again, we can have no idea what that word is meant to mean unless somebody uses it; until somebody says 'time exists'. Then we can ask them.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:15 am

Belinda wrote:Hobbes'Choice wrote:
but accepting on faith ANYTHING as true shows mental deficiency.
I'm afraid that I've misunderstood what I had thought that you previously wrote about maintaining a dichotomy between truth as propositional truth and truth as useful faith. Doubtless we agree that propositional truth is impossible because all 'truths' are contingent. I had understood that you thought that if a faith supports life then it's true.
Faith supposes nothing - what do you mean?
~I find myself puzzled.

Belinda
Posts: 2808
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:49 am

Hobbes'Choice, I said "if faith supports life" , not "if faith supposes life".

For instance in the story The Life of Pi he viewed his fearsome adventures as living with animals and this allegory enabled him to deal with living with unacceptable events.

User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Terrapin Station » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:28 pm

prothero wrote:The world is round (well roughly more than a square or flat). Is that a fact? A belief? An opinion? True? Knowledge? An assumption? Etc.
I use the conventional academic senses of the terms, especially with respect to philosophy, tempered by my own analysis of "what's functionally going on" with respect to what the words conventionally refer to.

So, for example, I use the "states of affairs in the world" (that obtain mind-independently unless we're talking about mental states of affairs per se) sense of "fact" and the "relational property of propositions" sense of "truth," but for the latter, my account is a subjectivist account due to an analysis of what propositions are ontologically (which hinges on my ontology of meaning), what the property (or properties) in question would have to be ontologically, and so on.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:24 pm

Belinda wrote:Hobbes'Choice, I said "if faith supports life" , not "if faith supposes life".

For instance in the story The Life of Pi he viewed his fearsome adventures as living with animals and this allegory enabled him to deal with living with unacceptable events.
The Life of Pi
Is a fantasy.
Faith cannot support anything, let alone life.

Belinda
Posts: 2808
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:39 pm

Hobbes'Choice wrote:


The Life of Pi
Is a fantasy.
Faith cannot support anything, let alone life.
I gather that you think that fantasy stories have no trace of truth.

Faith sometimes supports where belief fails. Belief must be subject to doubt. Faith however unreasoning does not have to be frustrated by doubt. Faith can be subjected to facticity and when facts indicate that a life situation is hopeless faith can restore order.

To get back to the topic of time , if we hold that time is change then we can understand how transience which is often sad is nothing to be afraid of.The problem of transience becomes one of adapting one's urge to live so that it's happier.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:52 pm

Belinda wrote:Hobbes'Choice wrote:


The Life of Pi
Is a fantasy.
Faith cannot support anything, let alone life.
I gather that you think that fantasy stories have no trace of truth.

Not at all. Literature contains much truth. But you cannot use a fantasy empirically.


Faith sometimes supports where belief fails. Belief must be subject to doubt. Faith however unreasoning does not have to be frustrated by doubt. Faith can be subjected to facticity and when facts indicate that a life situation is hopeless faith can restore order.

Personally I reject the distinction between faith and belief. Neither is any good for anything. It does not matter what you believe, as that does not change what is real.


To get back to the topic of time , if we hold that time is change then we can understand how transience which is often sad is nothing to be afraid of.The problem of transience becomes one of adapting one's urge to live so that it's happier.
Time is not the same as change. We express these two things using two words for very good reason.
And if you mean DEATH when you say transience, then it is the cessation of al urge. What is 'happier'?

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:13 pm

uwot wrote:Dunno if anyone still gives a monkey's, but if you want to know whether time exists, consider how it is measured. Plato, ironically the arch realist, argued that time is only the measure of change. To this day, we do not have any means of recording time that isn't based on counting physical events: Earth's orbit around the sun, its rotation on its axis, pendula swinging, atoms vibrating. You are free to believe that there is some discrete 'thing', which is affected by velocity and gravity, even electromagnetism, if you follow Spheres, but not only is it superfluous, it raises the issue of how matter/space affects a completely different 'substance'. Long story short: Kant was probably right, 'time' is simply a concept we invoke to make sense of reality, it is not a thing in itself.
This is what I currently believe is true, and is that which I have consistently argued for.

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:28 pm

prothero wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
prothero wrote: That is true because reality is a process made up of events and events invariably entail both existence and change, perpetual perishing and rebirth.
There is no re-birth, only birth and death. matter might be reconsituted, but as some of my atoms enter different worms, others maggots, bacteria, fungi, rats, and other rodents: it is highly unlikely that that I shall enjoy re-birth.
Each of us is unique. The only way I could be re-born is for another universe to evolve an identical earth so that I would be conceived at exactly the same moment - not that I would know it.

I am only me because of a unique and unrepeatable set of causalities changing moment by moment.
"the many become one and are increased by one". You are not exactly the same from moment to moment, there is always change but there is always continuity as well. The individual events (processes) which make up reality (and your body) are not static entities: instead individual events perish and new events are born but they incorporate elements of the past (assuring some measure of continuity) as well as possibilities from the future (assuring continuing change and creativity). Yes you are unique, but each moment of your life is unique is well and you are in fact both perishing and being reborn moment by moment.
Good point, though I believe 'reborn' is too strong a word considering what's actually happening. My complete person was only born once, as I shall die only once. The nature of my being is to take things from my environment, so as to 'duplicate' my trillions of constituents, one by one, leaving the whole mostly intact. This is a process of 'rejuvenation' through 'duplication,' not 'rebirth'.

Belinda
Posts: 2808
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:30 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Belinda wrote:Hobbes'Choice wrote:


The Life of Pi
Is a fantasy.
Faith cannot support anything, let alone life.
I gather that you think that fantasy stories have no trace of truth.

Not at all. Literature contains much truth. But you cannot use a fantasy empirically.


Faith sometimes supports where belief fails. Belief must be subject to doubt. Faith however unreasoning does not have to be frustrated by doubt. Faith can be subjected to facticity and when facts indicate that a life situation is hopeless faith can restore order.

Personally I reject the distinction between faith and belief. Neither is any good for anything. It does not matter what you believe, as that does not change what is real.


To get back to the topic of time , if we hold that time is change then we can understand how transience which is often sad is nothing to be afraid of.The problem of transience becomes one of adapting one's urge to live so that it's happier.
Time is not the same as change. We express these two things using two words for very good reason.
And if you mean DEATH when you say transience, then it is the cessation of al urge. What is 'happier'?
I wasn't using a fantasy as evidence of my senses I was using it to show me how interpretation of facts varies the nature of the facts according to the interpreter, and how a fantastic or even in some cases a mad interpretation conduces to life where pedestrian interpretation is too bad to contemplate.

Hobbes' you say "does not change what is real". But are you a naive realist?

I didn't mean only death when I said transience. I meant loss and I referred to the apprehension of loss.Transience is real for us, and transience is our awareness of the passage of time. It's good to put a name to it and it's good to read stories that deal with it as that helps us to accept it with some equanimity.

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Time does not exist.

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:51 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
prothero wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
As there is continuity there is also discontinuity. Death is discontinuity.
All things perish, except change itself.
Change is an idea.
No, it's a label we've given to something that the universe has ever done and shall ever do.
Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.
BullShit! Change does not depend upon mans existence, It happened long before us and shall continue long after us. That we labeled it such after scientific observation of the facts of how the universe works, is irrelevant! That the label may one day never be uttered by a living being, is irrelevant! Change is a part of how the universe works, if it did not, dumb animals known as humans would never have existed to then observe and label the facts of the physical universe. And no, dumb ass, it doesn't matter what puny humans decide, as it's final definition, no matter how long the equation.

Only dumb asses believe that everything is subjective, that there are no objective truths.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests