Time does not exist.

[Hobbes' Choice]

That is true because reality is a process made up of events and events invariably entail both existence and change, perpetual perishing and rebirth.

There is no re-birth, only birth and death. matter might be reconsituted, but as some of my atoms enter different worms, others maggots, bacteria, fungi, rats, and other rodents: it is highly unlikely that that I shall enjoy re-birth.
Each of us is unique. The only way I could be re-born is for another universe to evolve an identical earth so that I would be conceived at exactly the same moment - not that I would know it.

I am only me because of a unique and unrepeatable set of causalities changing moment by moment.

"the many become one and are increased by one". You are not exactly the same from moment to moment, there is always change but there is always continuity as well. The individual events (processes) which make up reality (and your body) are not static entities: instead individual events perish and new events are born but they incorporate elements of the past (assuring some measure of continuity) as well as possibilities from the future (assuring continuing change and creativity). Yes you are unique, but each moment of your life is unique is well and you are in fact both perishing and being reborn moment by moment.

As there is continuity there is also discontinuity. Death is discontinuity.

[prothero]

There is no re-birth, only birth and death. matter might be reconsituted, but as some of my atoms enter different worms, others maggots, bacteria, fungi, rats, and other rodents: it is highly unlikely that that I shall enjoy re-birth.
Each of us is unique. The only way I could be re-born is for another universe to evolve an identical earth so that I would be conceived at exactly the same moment - not that I would know it.

I am only me because of a unique and unrepeatable set of causalities changing moment by moment.

"the many become one and are increased by one". You are not exactly the same from moment to moment, there is always change but there is always continuity as well. The individual events (processes) which make up reality (and your body) are not static entities: instead individual events perish and new events are born but they incorporate elements of the past (assuring some measure of continuity) as well as possibilities from the future (assuring continuing change and creativity). Yes you are unique, but each moment of your life is unique is well and you are in fact both perishing and being reborn moment by moment.

As there is continuity there is also discontinuity. Death is discontinuity.

All things perish, except change itself.

[Hobbes' Choice]

"the many become one and are increased by one". You are not exactly the same from moment to moment, there is always change but there is always continuity as well. The individual events (processes) which make up reality (and your body) are not static entities: instead individual events perish and new events are born but they incorporate elements of the past (assuring some measure of continuity) as well as possibilities from the future (assuring continuing change and creativity). Yes you are unique, but each moment of your life is unique is well and you are in fact both perishing and being reborn moment by moment.

As there is continuity there is also discontinuity. Death is discontinuity.

All things perish, except change itself.

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

[prothero]

As there is continuity there is also discontinuity. Death is discontinuity.

All things perish, except change itself.

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

This is perhaps indicative of profoundly different worldviews. For me process, flux, change, becoming is the chief characteristic of reality. I am a a realist and believe in a world independent of our perceptions of it although our knowledge is limited by our perceptions.

[Hobbes' Choice]

All things perish, except change itself.

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

This is perhaps indicative of profoundly different worldviews. For me process, flux, change, becoming is the chief characteristic of reality. I am a a realist and believe in a world independent of our perceptions of it although our knowledge is limited by our perceptions.

But your perception of change ends when you do, and you cannot say that change cannot perish, because it is not a possible object of your experience.
Change is not a thing that admits to perishing or otherwise. It is simply an idea you can about the world. But for sure your conception of change will perish.

[Belinda]

Hobbes'choice wrote:

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

Surely you must believe that something exists?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Hobbes'choice wrote:

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

Surely you must believe that something exists?

Of course but 'change' is a mental concept, not a materially real thing. You cannot pretend to assert that for all time things will change. In fact there is a body of theory "the heat death of the universe" which holds that when complex energy has all finally turned to heat, all change will have ceased.

We only know the universe though our senses. And whilst I say I can only know, say, a cup, through my perception of it, I still accept that it has an independent existence. But a thing like "change" is a descriptor with value laden connotations of human interest. "IT" does not have the same quality of existence as a cup.

[OuterLimits]

If I remember something as being different than I perceive it to be now, I will label that change. Is this a mere "idea" ?

Perhaps. And so it is with a cup before me - which may be only a dream of a cup ...

[Hobbes' Choice]

If I remember something as being different than I perceive it to be now, I will label that change. Is this a mere "idea" ?

Perhaps. And so it is with a cup before me - which may be only a dream of a cup ...

Why is that important. I still seem to be able to drink my tea.

The way I see it, it would be harder for a mad scientist to contrive a virtual world for me as a brain in a vat, than to just create a world.

[Belinda]

Hobbes'choice wrote:

Change is an idea. Even that can perish when there is no one to reproduce that idea.

Surely you must believe that something exists?

Of course but 'change' is a mental concept, not a materially real thing. You cannot pretend to assert that for all time things will change. In fact there is a body of theory "the heat death of the universe" which holds that when complex energy has all finally turned to heat, all change will have ceased.

We only know the universe though our senses. And whilst I say I can only know, say, a cup, through my perception of it, I still accept that it has an independent existence. But a thing like "change" is a descriptor with value laden connotations of human interest. "IT" does not have the same quality of existence as a cup.

"You cannot pretend that for all time things will change" is true. However change doesn't pertain only to transience. Change also refers to asymmetry in the sense of how things and events differ from each other. The fact that there is no sameness pertaining to events and entities in this relative world is also change.

I see what you mean by the heat death of the universe as an illustration of how all transience and asymmetry might cease,when nothing exists except universal and permanent sameness in which case "exists" would be absurd.

[prothero]

"You cannot pretend that for all time things will change" is true. However change doesn't pertain only to transience. Change also refers to asymmetry in the sense of how things and events differ from each other. The fact that there is no sameness pertaining to events and entities in this relative world is also change.

I see what you mean by the heat death of the universe as an illustration of how all transience and asymmetry might cease,when nothing exists except universal and permanent sameness in which case "exists" would be absurd.

Models of the universe include the cyclical, the steady state and the ever expanding (eventual heat death). I have lived long enough to see favorites come and go. The answer is still tenative.

Even "empty" space is not empty and is itself an activity, a Dirac sea, a quantum foam of fluctuations around zero point, with virtual particles appearing and disappearing, and space has energy content. So there is no static "being" even in the heat death of the universe just a more uniform distribution of energy and activity (process and becoming).

[Belinda]

Prothero wrote:

So there is no static "being" even in the heat death of the universe just a more uniform distribution of energy and activity (process and becoming).

Has filled in a gap in my knowledge.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Hobbes'choice wrote:



Surely you must believe that something exists?

Of course but 'change' is a mental concept, not a materially real thing. You cannot pretend to assert that for all time things will change. In fact there is a body of theory "the heat death of the universe" which holds that when complex energy has all finally turned to heat, all change will have ceased.

We only know the universe though our senses. And whilst I say I can only know, say, a cup, through my perception of it, I still accept that it has an independent existence. But a thing like "change" is a descriptor with value laden connotations of human interest. "IT" does not have the same quality of existence as a cup.

"You cannot pretend that for all time things will change" is true. However change doesn't pertain only to transience. Change also refers to asymmetry in the sense of how things and events differ from each other. The fact that there is no sameness pertaining to events and entities in this relative world is also change.

I see what you mean by the heat death of the universe as an illustration of how all transience and asymmetry might cease,when nothing exists except universal and permanent sameness in which case "exists" would be absurd.

It does not really matter. The universe does not recognise change; is a function of human interest, not an a priori force of nature, merely an adjective.
It requires a witness.

[Terrapin Station]

Of course but 'change' is a mental concept, not a materially real thing.

We strongly disagree on some things in this arena. You seem to have some idealistic notions that I can't quite pin down.

You cannot pretend to assert that for all time things will change.

Maybe not, but I don't think that has anything to do with whether change is an extramental, real thing. I have no idea why you'd believe that change is only mental, and that the world doesn't change outside of a mental phenomenon of change.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Of course but 'change' is a mental concept, not a materially real thing.

We strongly disagree on some things in this arena. You seem to have some idealistic notions that I can't quite pin down.

You cannot pretend to assert that for all time things will change.

Maybe not, but I don't think that has anything to do with whether change is an extramental, real thing. I have no idea why you'd believe that change is only mental, and that the world doesn't change outside of a mental phenomenon of change.

You cannot point to a thing called change. It's just an adjective. You can't point to sadness; persistence; injustice; veracity; correctness.
On the assertion that the only thing that is deathless is {CHANGE ITSELF}; there is not change in "itself". Change is a human interested concept by which we describe particular aspects of our world.