Free Will vs Determinism

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Belinda
Posts: 2243
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:19 am

A_Seagull wrote:
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.
If causality has nothing to do with it it's uncaused.

Any state of mind is caused . In particular the admirable state of mind that Seagull describes is caused by an ability to have the state of mind. At the very least there are people who cannot attain this state of mind for causes such as that they are babies, or very ill, or stupid, or have been persuaded by a liar.

If you are intransigent about there being no cause of the admirable state of mind that you describe, Seagull, how are you going to decide what needs to be done to help babies to grow and learn, to help the ill to get well, to educate the stupid, and to present facts to the misinformed?

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:50 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?

If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.

If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.
If causality has nothing to do with it then by what measure are you actions effective?

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:32 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:



What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?

If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.

If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.
If causality has nothing to do with it then by what measure are you actions effective?
Irrespective of causality, the effectiveness of actions are measured according to the happiness they bring.

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:40 am

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.
If causality has nothing to do with it it's uncaused.

Any state of mind is caused . In particular the admirable state of mind that Seagull describes is caused by an ability to have the state of mind. At the very least there are people who cannot attain this state of mind for causes such as that they are babies, or very ill, or stupid, or have been persuaded by a liar.

If you are intransigent about there being no cause of the admirable state of mind that you describe, Seagull, how are you going to decide what needs to be done to help babies to grow and learn, to help the ill to get well, to educate the stupid, and to present facts to the misinformed?
People are different from each other, each is free to choose what they want to do. So for example, if you wish to educate the stupid then you are free to do so (or at least to attempt to do so) or perhaps try to persuade others to do so.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:51 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.
If causality has nothing to do with it then by what measure are you actions effective?
Irrespective of causality, the effectiveness of actions are measured according to the happiness they bring.
Without cause, no happiness can result.

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:51 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
If causality has nothing to do with it then by what measure are you actions effective?
Irrespective of causality, the effectiveness of actions are measured according to the happiness they bring.
Without cause, no happiness can result.
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.

Belinda
Posts: 2243
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:17 am

A_Seagull wrote:
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.
True. If anyone doubts the truth of the above from Seagull would they please read David Hume on constant correlation.

However Hume, and Seagull, must in conscience admit that, like all other creatures who are capable of learning ,their learning can happen only when empirical experience has preceded that bit of learning. And constant correlations of the two events whatever those events may be show that there is a connection which is ignored at their peril. It matters not whether we call the connection "causality" or "^%RVBIUYT%R*I(" .

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:55 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Irrespective of causality, the effectiveness of actions are measured according to the happiness they bring.
Without cause, no happiness can result.
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.
I am going deeper. I'm examining the very fabric of the universe.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:57 pm

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.
True. If anyone doubts the truth of the above from Seagull would they please read David Hume on constant correlation.

However Hume, and Seagull, must in conscience admit that, like all other creatures who are capable of learning ,their learning can happen only when empirical experience has preceded that bit of learning. And constant correlations of the two events whatever those events may be show that there is a connection which is ignored at their peril. It matters not whether we call the connection "causality" or "^%RVBIUYT%R*I(" .
Hume was a compatibilist, and suggested that the deterministic causes went deeper than the observable, being multiple and complex. He would agree with me that without cause and effect nothing would be meaningful, and that by the habitual observation of correlation we assert causality. Without this nothing makes sense, as we could never give the slightest assurance that our actions would result in any predictable results.

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:11 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Without cause, no happiness can result.
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.
I am going deeper. I'm examining the very fabric of the universe.
I contend that within the logical structure of the thinking brain/mind that the sensation of happiness must precede the perception of the phenomenon of causality.

Belinda
Posts: 2243
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:27 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
I contend that within the logical structure of the thinking brain/mind that the sensation of happiness must precede the perception of the phenomenon of causality.
Certainly the sensation of happiness precedes the concept of causality. Causality is the name of a concept. Hume has shown that causation is in fact no more than constant conjunction of events.

However the whole of inductive reasoning is founded upon constant conjunctions. At its simplest, refer to any animal trainer for evidence of the truth of this. I think, Seagull, that you haven't any basis for an argument that constant conjunctions of events don't matter. The alternative is chaos.

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:10 pm

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
I contend that within the logical structure of the thinking brain/mind that the sensation of happiness must precede the perception of the phenomenon of causality.
Certainly the sensation of happiness precedes the concept of causality. Causality is the name of a concept. Hume has shown that causation is in fact no more than constant conjunction of events.

However the whole of inductive reasoning is founded upon constant conjunctions. At its simplest, refer to any animal trainer for evidence of the truth of this. I think, Seagull, that you haven't any basis for an argument that constant conjunctions of events don't matter. The alternative is chaos.
If you read what I wrote you will see I never claimed that causation didn't matter. I merely claimed that it was not relevant to my other claims.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8364
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:48 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
You have to go deeper. When you refer to 'cause' you are really referring to the perception or phenomenon of "cause" rather than cause as a noumenal (unknowable) entity.
I am going deeper. I'm examining the very fabric of the universe.
I contend that within the logical structure of the thinking brain/mind that the sensation of happiness must precede the perception of the phenomenon of causality.

And where does "he sensation of happiness " come from?
:lol:

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:49 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
I am going deeper. I'm examining the very fabric of the universe.
I contend that within the logical structure of the thinking brain/mind that the sensation of happiness must precede the perception of the phenomenon of causality.

And where does "he sensation of happiness " come from?
:lol:
It follows closely from "I am": I exist, I think, I experience pain, I experience happiness.

It can also be viewed as an essential ingredient for the logical structure of an autonomous thinking animal. There needs to be some criteria by which the success or failure of the decisions of the animal can be assessed; and those are pleasure and pain.

Belinda
Posts: 2243
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:10 pm

A_Seagull wrote:

It follows closely from "I am":
I suppose that "it follows closely" means that it is constantly conjoined with. When two events, i.e. I am and happiness, are constantly conjoined we assume that the one is the cause of the other. This is inductive logic and it is also how we learn from experience.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests