Free Will vs Determinism

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A_Seagull
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:27 am

Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:17 am

A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....

Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:24 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....

Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:45 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
The causes are deterministic that some peoples are less free than others. In order to take responsibility you have to possess the freedom that comes from being well informed and able to act upon your own initiative. Many people cannot do so as they lack health, funds, or schooling and have little or no choice but to allow others to make decisions on their behalf.

Socialists aim to increase the choices and responsibilities of individuals through enrichment of poor people so that poor people can be upwardly mobile . This in effect means that socialists tax populations so that all individual citizens may be more free and take more responsibility for themselves and others.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:09 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....

Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:16 am

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
The causes are deterministic that some peoples are less free than others. In order to take responsibility you have to possess the freedom that comes from being well informed and able to act upon your own initiative. Many people cannot do so as they lack health, funds, or schooling and have little or no choice but to allow others to make decisions on their behalf.

Socialists aim to increase the choices and responsibilities of individuals through enrichment of poor people so that poor people can be upwardly mobile . This in effect means that socialists tax populations so that all individual citizens may be more free and take more responsibility for themselves and others.
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:22 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.
How do you work that out? I would have thought the opposite was true.

Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:58 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?

If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.

If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:09 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.
How do you work that out? I would have thought the opposite was true.

Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.
Rubbish. I can make you wholly responsible for your actions; cause. You might act differently knowing you'd be punished: Effect
You can only act freely, is you know that your actions: causes, have the sort of ends you desire: effects.

if the world is non-deterministic, then crime deterrence does not work, and you can never act on your knowledge in a meaningful way, neither can you predict the consequences of your actions.
In a non-deterministic world nothing makes sense because you cannot cause anything to happen.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:10 am

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?

If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.

If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:25 am

Hobbes choice wrote:
It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.
How do you mean? I feel clear in my own mind so what did I say wrong?

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote:Hobbes choice wrote:
It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.
How do you mean? I feel clear in my own mind so what did I say wrong?
You are claiming two things which cannot co-exist.
1) Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.
2) If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.


Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a deterministic world, since all natural states are caused. If they are caused then they are determined by antecedent conditions. There are no unnatural states.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:09 pm

Hobbes I did not claim to believe those two inconsistent stances. If you revise what I wrote you will see that what I was asking was which of the two stances was Seagull's preference.

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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:52 pm

Belinda wrote:Hobbes I did not claim to believe those two inconsistent stances. If you revise what I wrote you will see that what I was asking was which of the two stances was Seagull's preference.
Sorry If I've crossed thread here a bit.
Do you accept that an attitude of freedom has to be caused, like anything else?

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A_Seagull
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by A_Seagull » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:43 am

Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?

If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.

If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.

Causality has nothing to do with it.

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