Free Will vs Determinism

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duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:55 pm

It is determined that someone becomes a hate machine and kills as many people as he can.

It is not determined whether the scared relatives punish him or excuse him and let him go.

Is that what you are saying in earnest ?

devonmm
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by devonmm » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:42 pm

duszek wrote:It is determined that someone becomes a hate machine and kills as many people as he can.

It is not determined whether the scared relatives punish him or excuse him and let him go.

Is that what you are saying in earnest ?

It's all determined. What I'm saying is that no one is to blame, no one is good or bad. Choice is simply a complex series of electrical impulses and aligned molecules inside a brain reacting to an environment governed by the laws of physics. It's an illusion.

This belief in free will is a cancer to society. It creates blame.

What does sentencing a murderer to death do to prevent another murder? Nothing. What does telling a poor person, "if you get a job and work hard you can become succesful" do to change wealth inequality? Nothing

We treat each other critically because of this belief in choice and society is unproductive because of it. Poor people are blamed for being poor. Rich people are given a pat on the back for being rich (even though they're often uncontent themselves. ) Criminals are punished instead of rehabilitated. Different races blame eachother for circumstances rather than having empathy.

It's a terrible and ridiculously pervasive belief. It was created just to explain the problem of evil and religion.

duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:10 pm

Well then, let´s kill everyone who has committed any crime no matter how small.
We (the punishers) have no free will anyway, so what ?
It does not matter what we do, everything just happens.

If everything just happens on its own why get excited about it ? Why think whether anthing is "fair" ?

You realize that the argument about lack of free will does not work.
To save it you would have to patronize the "poor classes" and to lower them to the level of animals who are not responsible for what they are doing.
And the "judging classes" would be supposed to decide wisely and kindly that the human brutes are innocent whatever they do. This would imply that the judging classes are something different.

This is not a kind service to the poor devils ... :(

They would not appreciate it we asked them I guess.

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Lawrence Crocker
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Lawrence Crocker » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:26 pm

The current nearly unanimous opinion among physicists seems to be that determinism is false. (Experiments have made the hidden variable interpretation of quantum mechanics very unattractive.) However, that is irrelevant or nearly irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, as quantum effects play little if any role in human behavior and as identifying free will with a random quantum event wouldn't be very appealing anyway. For all practical purposes, human action is caused action.

If you think that this means that it is irrational to punish criminals, you have not carried your incompatibilism of responsibility and determinism nearly to its logical terminus. It would also irrational to criticize anyone (including posters here) or to praise anyone -- for anything. If you have ever congratulated anyone you were being irrational. If you have ever felt good or proud about anything you did, that too was irrational. It is OK to say that your proof was novel, ingenious, and difficult; but it is nonsense for you to pat yourself on the back for producing it. All this if you think that personal responsibility is incompatible with determinism.

If you want to treat differently someone who causes an accident as a result of a first unexpected attack of epilepsy, and someone who causes an accident by intentionally driving 100 in a 30 zone, then you want a notion of responsibility that is more nuanced than asking whether the accident was caused.

If the concept of "free will" hasn't become too corrupted for any sensible use, we would want to rehabilitate it by tying it into this more nuanced notion of responsibility, and a nuanced notion of responsibility is what we want as a practical matter for a decent society and a sensible concept of the worth of ourselves and our friends and associates.

duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:22 pm

The problem with determinism and the theory that there is no free will is that it can make people commit the worst savagery because they cannot be blamed for it.

Lack of free will is an excuse to enter the path of evil at the detriment of everybody else.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Dalek Prime » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:36 pm

I wonder what date it has been determined that I give up on this forum, all my discussions having been determined? I really need to skip ahead a few chapters; save time. But I can't of my own accord. At least I know I'll be frustrated over the situation.

duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:41 pm

Your frustration has been determined too, so no escape, whatever you try to do or not to do.

Just relax and see what happens.

I recommend making bets with oneself and putting down the supposed results.
Later one can read the notes and feel suprised.

Is a feeling of surprise a legitimate one in a determined world ?

duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm

How about this one:

A racist policeman shots at a man because the latter gave him a dirty look.

The policeman´s racist views were determined by the family he grew up in and by his cultural background.

His shooting was determined by his former experiences and by talks with his colleagues.

So who can possibly blame him for whatever ?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:41 pm

"The policeman´s racist views were determined by the family he grew up in and by his cultural background."

Goes deeper, and further back, than that.

If determinism is right then all of it -- every thought and action of every person who's ever lived or will live -- has its source in the First Event, the first domino...like a causal assembly line, stretching back to the beginning of time.

thedoc
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:08 pm

"The Devil made me do it."

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:17 pm

And it's not his fault either cuz he's just another robot.

Dalek Prime
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Re:

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:18 pm

henry quirk wrote:And it's not his fault either cuz he's just another robot.
Domo, Mr. Roboto...

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:20 pm

That's the ticket.

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Re:

Post by thedoc » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:30 am

henry quirk wrote:And it's not his fault either cuz he's just another robot.
And that's where it all breaks down, people who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. There are so many dishonest jerks in this world, it makes it difficult to navigate, being honest. That's why I like Henry, he's honest in his opinions and view, and says what he believes, I might not always agree with him, but I can believe what he posts.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:28 pm

"There are so many dishonest jerks in this world"

Nah, it just seems that way...the dishonest jerks, just robots; the honest, likable types, just robots...that's what determinism sez...me: tired of goin' against the flow...I welcome my shiny, chrome, robot-status...no longer will I defend or justify or explain...don't blame me for jack, I'm just a determined event, just a link in a causal chain.

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