Free Will vs Determinism

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peacegirl
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by peacegirl » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:50 pm

duszek wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:45 pm
If a vilain does not choose what he is doing how can the society choose whether to punish him or not and how ?

The executionist acts without free will either.

Everything just happens.

What would the Peacegirl respond to this ?
Hi duszek, this was an older post but I saw my name mentioned so I will answer it. Everything happens the way it had to happen. The villain did not have the free will to do otherwise, and neither did the executioner. But...that does not mean that in a different environment the villain would choose the same actions, nor would the executioner as a result. We cannot change the past, but we can prevent, under new conditions, the same villainous behavior from repeating itself. I just started a thread on this subject called: New Discovery. I hope people are interested.

duszek
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by duszek » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:12 pm

How can we prevent anything from happening if we have no free will ?

We can just lean back and watch.

peacegirl
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by peacegirl » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:04 pm

duszek wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:12 pm
How can we prevent anything from happening if we have no free will ?

We can just lean back and watch.
People get confused over fatalism and determinism. Just because we could not do otherwise does not mean our choices don't matter. What we, as agents, choose cannot be left out of the equation, for situations are not just fated to happen without our input but are determined by the choices we make, which are also part of the causal chain of life. Fate does not mean we just sit back and watch. It means we are co-creators (so to speak) in how our fate (or destiny) turns out. We usually call something fate ordained when we could do nothing more to change a situation, but, once again, it does not mean that our choices don't matter because of the idea that "what will be will be" and there's nothing we can do about it.

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henry quirk
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"Just because we could not do otherwise does not mean our choices don't matter"

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:55 pm

If I don't actually choose, if choice is an illusion, if I'm just bio-automation, then my choice (which isn't really a choice at all) indeed does not matter.

But: this is all nonsense...I'm a free will, I do choose, my choices do matter.

Yeah, I'm bound up by innumerable causal chains, but how lovely it is to be able to bend so many of those chains to my liking, to initiate new chains.

The only dampener on my joy at being autonomous and free is that the rest of 'you' are too.

This is troublesome to a few of you. You're desperate to 'not' be self-responsible, self-directing...but you are.

As I say: far more interestin' to me than 'free will' is this phenomonon of folks workin' hard to deny they 'are' free wills.

Belinda
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Re: "Just because we could not do otherwise does not mean our choices don't matter"

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:49 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:55 pm
If I don't actually choose, if choice is an illusion, if I'm just bio-automation, then my choice (which isn't really a choice at all) indeed does not matter.

But: this is all nonsense...I'm a free will, I do choose, my choices do matter.

Yeah, I'm bound up by innumerable causal chains, but how lovely it is to be able to bend so many of those chains to my liking, to initiate new chains.

The only dampener on my joy at being autonomous and free is that the rest of 'you' are too.

This is troublesome to a few of you. You're desperate to 'not' be self-responsible, self-directing...but you are.

As I say: far more interestin' to me than 'free will' is this phenomonon of folks workin' hard to deny they 'are' free wills.
Your choices range far larger than the choices of a dog , a slave, or a prisoner. You can indeed "bend" many of the causal chains and causal circumstances that bind dog,slave, and prisoner. You can initiate but not originate new causal chains and causal circumstances.

You are not considering what 'originating' implies. Henry's will and Henry's decisions of a free man are caused by Henry's well -functioning human brain-mind, and Henry's good luck , if you like, in being born in modern USA. Henry's brain and the circumstances of Henry's birth, schooling, residence, even Henry's surrounding climate and terrain are not caused by Henry. That Henry can make those circumstances work very well for him is caused by his biology and his nurture. There remains no need to presume that there is something extra called Henry's 'Free Will'.

Indeed , because so-called 'Free Will' is not caused by anything choices based upon it would be no more desirable than mindless gambles.

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henry quirk
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"You are not considering what 'originating' implies."

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm

No, you're just denying the obvious about yourself, that being you are a free will (all the time, across all circumstances).

Why you (and others) do this is -- again -- far more interesting to me than 'free will' (an evident reality).

peacegirl
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Re: "Just because we could not do otherwise does not mean our choices don't matter"

Post by peacegirl » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:33 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:55 pm
If I don't actually choose, if choice is an illusion, if I'm just bio-automation, then my choice (which isn't really a choice at all) indeed does not matter.

But: this is all nonsense...I'm a free will, I do choose, my choices do matter.
This confusion does not have to continue. It is all nonsense if people define determinism as not having a choice. You better believe choices do matter. :roll:
henry quirk wrote:Yeah, I'm bound up by innumerable causal chains, but how lovely it is to be able to bend so many of those chains to my liking, to initiate new chains.
Once again, you are not bending determinism by changing the causal chain which you are bound to because anything you do is part and parcel of the deterministic process. The problem is how determinism is defined, which has caused an inability to reconcile the two opposing ideologies.
henry quirk wrote:The only dampener on my joy at being autonomous and free is that the rest of 'you' are too.
Don't worry, determinism (how it's accurately defined) does not turn a person into a robot that does only what it is programmed to do by something outside of itself. To use the word "free" (meaning without external constraint), is fine to use in that context, but this in no way means we have "freedom of the will."
henry quirk wrote:This is troublesome to a few of you. You're desperate to 'not' be self-responsible, self-directing...but you are.

As I say: far more interestin' to me than 'free will' is this phenomonon of folks workin' hard to deny they 'are' free wills.
I'm sure hard determinists are glad you're interested in this discussion (which is sooo important), even if you think the stupid ones are the ones trying to deny they are "free willers." :)

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henry quirk
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"Don't worry"

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:59 pm

got no cause to

Belinda
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Re: "You are not considering what 'originating' implies."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:08 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm
No, you're just denying the obvious about yourself, that being you are a free will (all the time, across all circumstances).

Why you (and others) do this is -- again -- far more interesting to me than 'free will' (an evident reality).
It's a challenge for me to try to explain to you what absolute Free Will is.

Within your anatomy where is your absolute Free Will?

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henry quirk
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I don't have a free will, I am a free will.

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:10 pm

.

Belinda
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Re: I don't have a free will, I am a free will.

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:10 pm
.

Do you mean "nowhere" ? So your Free Will is immaterial substance?

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henry quirk
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"So your Free Will is immaterial substance?"

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:17 pm

No.

In the subject line of my post I wrote: I don't have a free will, I am a free will (I am flesh and blood and bone and muscle and brain, so if I'm a free will [and I am] then free will is physical).

Belinda
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Re: "So your Free Will is immaterial substance?"

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:14 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:17 pm
No.

In the subject line of my post I wrote: I don't have a free will, I am a free will (I am flesh and blood and bone and muscle and brain, so if I'm a free will [and I am] then free will is physical).
I see. Would you say that you have more free will than ,say, somebody who is demented?

Logik
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Re: "So your Free Will is immaterial substance?"

Post by Logik » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:20 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:17 pm
No.

In the subject line of my post I wrote: I don't have a free will, I am a free will (I am flesh and blood and bone and muscle and brain, so if I'm a free will [and I am] then free will is physical).
I see. Would you say that you have more free will than ,say, somebody who is demented?
Your conception of "free will" sounds awful lot like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_o ... tatistics)

The number of variables under one's direct control.

Belinda
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Re: "So your Free Will is immaterial substance?"

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:47 pm

Logik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:20 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:17 pm
No.

In the subject line of my post I wrote: I don't have a free will, I am a free will (I am flesh and blood and bone and muscle and brain, so if I'm a free will [and I am] then free will is physical).
I see. Would you say that you have more free will than ,say, somebody who is demented?
Your conception of "free will" sounds awful lot like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_o ... tatistics)

the number of variables under his direct controlThe number of variables under one's direct control.
I prefer determinism, Logik, and I think that Henry is bedazzled by the number of variables under his direct control . I was quizzing Henry because I sometimes like a challenge and some variable is causing Henry to be intransigent in the matter of Free Will.

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