Free Will vs Determinism

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Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:07 pm

While I agree with SpheresofBalance, I think that SofB and others are arguing not for what I mean by ontic Free Will. Within determinism there are degrees of freedom as I understand SofB to say.

There is no such thing as absolute Free Will. Absolute Free Will is not the same as exerting choice, an activity of many animal species . Sapiens can reflect on choices which arguably other species can't do quite so well. The more a man can reflect on his decisions the more free he is, generally speaking, although there are undoubtedly occasions when he or she is better off acting on impulse or even instinct.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:32 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:07 pm
While I agree with SpheresofBalance, I think that SofB and others are arguing not for what I mean by ontic Free Will. Within determinism there are degrees of freedom as I understand SofB to say.

There is no such thing as absolute Free Will. Absolute Free Will is not the same as exerting choice, an activity of many animal species . Sapiens can reflect on choices which arguably other species can't do quite so well. The more a man can reflect on his decisions the more free he is, generally speaking, although there are undoubtedly occasions when he or she is better off acting on impulse or even instinct.
Correct Belinda, there are no such things as human concepts that are absolute, as they are only ever a means for humans to serve themselves, for their fear of death! Only the universe and everything it is comprised of are absolute; as far as we currently "know," it contains no meaning, only humans ascribe such for their self interest. To stay alive for as long as possible, on as firm a ground as their supposed knowledge can affirm. This in a universe of 'currently:' spheres that balance, amongst the possibility of instant annihilation from a gamma ray burst, supernova, black hole, asteroid strike, plate tectonics, or tsunami, to name but a few. Then there is the absurdity of mankind becoming that thing he fears, as with nuclear annihilation. In an uncertain universe, we crave spheres that balance, and grapple for anything that we believe can assure such an achievement.

Peace, my sister! ;-)

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henry quirk
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ontic free will

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:21 pm

I'm a free will, I'm real, so: free will is real.

Belinda
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Re: ontic free will

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:15 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:21 pm
I'm a free will, I'm real, so: free will is real.
How do you know that you are not making everything up including yourself?

Another question: if you lost your memory would you cease to be the real Henry Quirk?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ontic free will

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:20 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:15 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:21 pm
I'm a free will, I'm real, so: free will is real.
How do you know that you are not making everything up including yourself?

Another question: if you lost your memory would you cease to be the real Henry Quirk?
Belinda, do you wilfully join us here freely, or is it determined that you should be here debating determinism and free will?

Belinda
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Re: ontic free will

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:53 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:20 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:15 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:21 pm
I'm a free will, I'm real, so: free will is real.
How do you know that you are not making everything up including yourself?

Another question: if you lost your memory would you cease to be the real Henry Quirk?
Belinda, do you wilfully join us here freely, or is it determined that you should be here debating determinism and free will?
I am more free to choose to come here to debate, or not, as the case may be because the circumstances of my life enabled me to have those choices. I did not choose the events that preceded my birth. I had limited choices when I was a child. I am not demented and this too allows me to be free to choose between many options. My choice to debate here is a voluntary choice as are many others of my choices.
I endorse any efforts that enable all people without exception to have many voluntary choices.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:16 pm

"How do you know that you are not making everything up including yourself?"

I'm not a solipsist cuz I'm too damn dumb (and not nearly twisted enough) to be makin' all this crap up (pedophilia? ain't no way that came outta my head!).

#

"Another question: if you lost your memory would you cease to be the real Henry Quirk?"

Hell if I know: I remember shit I wish I could forget.

#

"I did not choose the events that preceded my birth."

Neither did I but now, as an adult, I exercise enormous control over my circumstances.

#

"I had limited choices when I was a child."

Me too cuz my agency was limited. Today: I (like you) am almost god-like in my agency.

#

"I am not demented and this too allows me to be free to choose between many options."

Most folks aren't. Some people make a damn good livin' convincin' folks otherwise.

#

"My choice to debate here is a voluntary choice as are many others of my choices."

You, as a free will, choose to be here.

#

"I endorse any efforts that enable all people without exception to have many voluntary choices."

Very good of you, but unnecessary: the world is full of free wills who just need to stop listening to other free wills who -- lookin' to make a 'profit' -- tell them they're bio-automata

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ontic free will

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:40 am

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:53 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:20 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:15 pm
How do you know that you are not making everything up including yourself?

Another question: if you lost your memory would you cease to be the real Henry Quirk?
Belinda, do you wilfully join us here freely, or is it determined that you should be here debating determinism and free will?
I am more free to choose to come here to debate, or not, as the case may be because the circumstances of my life enabled me to have those choices. I did not choose the events that preceded my birth. I had limited choices when I was a child. I am not demented and this too allows me to be free to choose between many options. My choice to debate here is a voluntary choice as are many others of my choices.
I endorse any efforts that enable all people without exception to have many voluntary choices.
You have just spoken of:
will2 [wil]
noun
the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will. == Dictionary.com ==
And as you've said, you are free to exercise the conscious and deliberate action that is logging into the philosophy forum so as to argue for or against any particular human concept that you believe requires it. And I'll assume that it's for the same reason I do, you want to make the world a better place?

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:35 am

Henry Quirk, and SpheresofBalance, "More free" which is what I said is not the same as 'absolutely free'. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. All free actions including voluntary actions are caused actions.

The only uncaused cause is existence itself, or if you are a theist, God itself or Himself.

For a man to have even a smidgin of absolute freedom to act, free of all causes, that man would have to have a smidgin of the sort of absolute freedom that existence itself, or God, has. That hypothetical man would include within himself an attribute not of this world.

It has long been taught to Christians that God allowed men alone among all the animals to have this attribute of other-worldly Free Will.
Until other- worldly Free Will is seen to be a fiction there will be no accord between science and Christian doctrine.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:53 pm

"For a man to have even a smidgin of absolute freedom to act, free of all causes, that man would have to have a smidgin of the sort of absolute freedom that existence itself, or God, has."

Yep. I have that. You have it too.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:37 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:35 am
Henry Quirk, and SpheresofBalance, "More free" which is what I said is not the same as 'absolutely free'. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. All free actions including voluntary actions are caused actions.
Funny but I've NEVER said anything about freedom being ABSOLUTE, EVER!!! So why do you try and insist that I have? I have said over and over again that free will exists within the framework of determinism. Are you having a problem understanding the implications of such a statement? Cause does not negate freedom, and so it's you that tries to speak in absolute terms, not I! I'm a type of compatibilist when it comes to free will. Freedom and determinism are not mutually exclusive terms when one is nested within the other. One just needs to come to terms with free wills position within the human construct. ABSOLUTELY NO human conceptualization ever absolutely existed. It's always existed within the framework of the physics of this universe, as we dump all that is us, both physically and psychologically into a big pot and stir, PERIOD! Almost none of what humans believe is real, and it all shall die with humanity! You should know by now how I see us as a bunch of dumb monkeys. And no, I'm not a misanthrope. I just largely hate those in charge, as most of them are just power hungry morons! But I digress!

The only uncaused cause is existence itself, or if you are a theist, God itself or Himself.

For a man to have even a smidgin of absolute freedom to act, free of all causes, that man would have to have a smidgin of the sort of absolute freedom that existence itself, or God, has. That hypothetical man would include within himself an attribute not of this world.

It has long been taught to Christians that God allowed men alone among all the animals to have this attribute of other-worldly Free Will.
Until other- worldly Free Will is seen to be a fiction there will be no accord between science and Christian doctrine.
I thought you knew all that Christian crap was pretty much BS. The bible is simply like any other philosophy text, you throw away the misconception, and mull over the ideas that seem to ring true! All so called knowledge is to be taken like science, it's only ever to be considered revisionist in nature. Because humanity is yet to be mature; we are still infants. As usual, I just have to add that, I sincerely hope we can survive ourselves to one day actually be the mature entities that I can see on the distance horizon! Yes, I'm saying that I'm ahead of everyone else. ;-) OK, I'll be fair... I'm sure there are others out there that are as worldly wise as I am, I just haven't met them yet. :P
Make no mistake, I do appreciate you Belinda. It started the day you asked me why I so often speak in terms of death. And I told you it was to ensure that the topic in question was seen with much more seriousness; in so many words.

So thanks for sharing your time with me on this matter, I really do appreciate it! ;-)

P.S. try not to ever automatically ascribe age old meaning to any concept that I may talk about, as I'm definitely one of those fish that prefer to swim upstream.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:56 pm

SpheresofBalance wrote:
Funny but I've NEVER said anything about freedom being ABSOLUTE, EVER!!! So why do you try and insist that I have? I have said over and over again that free will exists within the framework of determinism.
I'm so sorry Spheres that I did not remember this especially as it's what I think too. I am accustomed to thinking of Free Will as opposed to determinism, and I give the words capital letters to denote that the theory of Free Will is a religious and theistic theory What you explain above I'd rather call 'freedom'.

Belinda
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Re:

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:59 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:53 pm
"For a man to have even a smidgin of absolute freedom to act, free of all causes, that man would have to have a smidgin of the sort of absolute freedom that existence itself, or God, has."

Yep. I have that. You have it too.
Either you believe that religious doctrine, or you don t understand the nature of absolute Free Will. Or both.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:14 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:56 pm
SpheresofBalance wrote:
Funny but I've NEVER said anything about freedom being ABSOLUTE, EVER!!! So why do you try and insist that I have? I have said over and over again that free will exists within the framework of determinism.
I'm so sorry Spheres that I did not remember this especially as it's what I think too. I am accustomed to thinking of Free Will as opposed to determinism, and I give the words capital letters to denote that the theory of Free Will is a religious and theistic theory What you explain above I'd rather call 'freedom'.
No worries Belinda. I don't know how you fit discussing things here into your daily schedule, but I can see where doing so while extremely busy can lead to a misunderstanding, after all we're only human. I have the luxury, depending upon different perspectives, of having far too much time on my hands, such that the only time I make no mistakes here is when I proof read my verbiage several times. Did I say several? Maybe I should have included the word plethora... ;-)

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:14 pm

"Either you believe that religious doctrine, or you don t understand the nature of absolute Free Will. Or both."

I'm an indifferent agnostic (don't know, don't care) and I understand free will perfectly (cuz I am one).

You, on the other hand, seem hell-bent to self-diminish, to be less than what you are. You can view yourself as you like, of course, but I see myself differently and nuthin' any 'determinist' (hard or soft) offers up moves me to discount my experience of myself, in the world.

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