Free Will vs Determinism
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....
Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.Hobbes' Choice wrote:A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....
Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
A_Seagull wrote:
Socialists aim to increase the choices and responsibilities of individuals through enrichment of poor people so that poor people can be upwardly mobile . This in effect means that socialists tax populations so that all individual citizens may be more free and take more responsibility for themselves and others.
The causes are deterministic that some peoples are less free than others. In order to take responsibility you have to possess the freedom that comes from being well informed and able to act upon your own initiative. Many people cannot do so as they lack health, funds, or schooling and have little or no choice but to allow others to make decisions on their behalf.Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
Socialists aim to increase the choices and responsibilities of individuals through enrichment of poor people so that poor people can be upwardly mobile . This in effect means that socialists tax populations so that all individual citizens may be more free and take more responsibility for themselves and others.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.A_Seagull wrote:Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.Hobbes' Choice wrote:A_Seagull wrote:Determinism is a communist/fascist plot to try to make the rest of us into unthinking autonomous robots; while the manipulators get to enjoy all the fruits of life. We must resist... we must resist.... we must....
Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
The causes are deterministic that some peoples are less free than others. In order to take responsibility you have to possess the freedom that comes from being well informed and able to act upon your own initiative. Many people cannot do so as they lack health, funds, or schooling and have little or no choice but to allow others to make decisions on their behalf.Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
Socialists aim to increase the choices and responsibilities of individuals through enrichment of poor people so that poor people can be upwardly mobile . This in effect means that socialists tax populations so that all individual citizens may be more free and take more responsibility for themselves and others.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
How do you work that out? I would have thought the opposite was true.Hobbes' Choice wrote:You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.A_Seagull wrote:Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Free will is a capitalist plot to make us fully responsible for poverty and crime, and to blame children for their lack of application, and to blame everyone for everything.
Join together and resist the plutocracy.
Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
A_Seagull wrote:
If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.
If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.
If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Rubbish. I can make you wholly responsible for your actions; cause. You might act differently knowing you'd be punished: EffectA_Seagull wrote:How do you work that out? I would have thought the opposite was true.Hobbes' Choice wrote:You can only take responsibility and be free if the universe is deterministic, else anything you do have no effect.A_Seagull wrote:
Free people take responsibility for their own lives. To allow others to take responsibility for ones situation is to invite oneself into a position of servitude, or to be kept as a pet or as a farmed animal.
Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.
You can only act freely, is you know that your actions: causes, have the sort of ends you desire: effects.
if the world is non-deterministic, then crime deterrence does not work, and you can never act on your knowledge in a meaningful way, neither can you predict the consequences of your actions.
In a non-deterministic world nothing makes sense because you cannot cause anything to happen.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.
If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Hobbes choice wrote:
How do you mean? I feel clear in my own mind so what did I say wrong?It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
You are claiming two things which cannot co-exist.Belinda wrote:Hobbes choice wrote:
How do you mean? I feel clear in my own mind so what did I say wrong?It seems you have just shot yourself in the foot here.
1) Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a non-deterministic world.
2) If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
Responsibility and freedom only have meaning in a deterministic world, since all natural states are caused. If they are caused then they are determined by antecedent conditions. There are no unnatural states.
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Hobbes I did not claim to believe those two inconsistent stances. If you revise what I wrote you will see that what I was asking was which of the two stances was Seagull's preference.
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism
Sorry If I've crossed thread here a bit.Belinda wrote:Hobbes I did not claim to believe those two inconsistent stances. If you revise what I wrote you will see that what I was asking was which of the two stances was Seagull's preference.
Do you accept that an attitude of freedom has to be caused, like anything else?
Re: Free Will vs Determinism
I mean that freedom is a state of mind. It is an attitude. It is taking responsibility for ones own life. It is about not believing lies. It is about ignoring BS. It is about embracing life.Belinda wrote:A_Seagull wrote:
What do you mean? Do you mean 1. that freedom as a state of mind is caused, or 2. that freedom as a state of mind is uncaused?Freedom is a state of mind. Some have it, others don't.
If freedom as a state of mind is caused then freedom as a state of mind is determined by the individual's circumstances.
If freedom as a state of mind is uncaused what is it? Is it must then be not natural, as all natural states are caused states.
Causality has nothing to do with it.