What really matters?

For all things philosophical.

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Greta
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:07 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Lacewing wrote:
Greta wrote:The more we love, the more we learn and understand. The more we learn and understand, the more we love.
I love this. :D Makes wonderful sense to me.

Yes, there is so much about the future (and our continual unfolding) that can be extraordinarily exciting and interesting. A brilliant creation!
It may be exciting and all, but its still ridiculous, means nothing, and when the final curtain falls, accomplishes nothing.
Why so grumpy? Why is everything rendered meaningless just because we snuff it? You don't know what happens afterwards, even though many are sure they know.

You assume that we are talking about luuurve in some new age way. Not so. "Love" in this context refers to passion, enthusiasm and interest in "something". Anything.

Love in this context could be anything from family matters to rock collecting, music, sex, entomology or even murder - we are all better of if we're passionate about something in life (even if others don't always benefit from our passions).

That's my point and I did make this clear earlier because I know that Americans are in the midst of an intellectual war (evangelists/Tea Party v the rest) so it's always possible that someone will suspect theistic or new age propaganda when speaking of "love" in the general sense. The fact that theists, hippies and new agers bang on about lurve in no way turns me off the idea. I wouldn't care if Hitler embraced it - a good idea is a good idea.

That's half of the "love and understanding" equation. It helps to aim for understanding rather than judgement, to seriously consider and try to read between the lines rather than rush to snap judgements. I learn more from trying to understand what people are trying to get across than finding ways of putting the most negative possible spin on their words.

I've been there, done that - for decades. My mother was a satirist and I inherited her ability, and I'm capable of being highly nasty and satirical - aiming for people's tender spots and twisting the knife. I had a jolly good laugh at others' expense many times and I found I didn't like myself for doing it.

So now I try harder to understand what people's key points are when they speak and, yes, I think it's important. My life is more peaceful and I'm not stuck in endless BS battles with people over things I ultimately don't care much about caused by wrong assumptions.

Obvious Leo
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:37 am

Hallelujah! Go tell it on the mountain, sister, because thou knowest that thy redeemer liveth. People twist their minds into pretzels over nothing when they're looking for a meaning in life because the goalposts are forever shifting as we go along. We all know that the destination of life is oblivion so obviously the destination's got fuck-all to do with the meaning of it, which leaves us with only one clear alternative. The meaning of life lies in the journey of life and it doesn't matter a rat's arse how we pursue this journey as long as get a buzz out of it. Thus spake the crumbling hippy.

Dubious
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Dubious » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:07 pm

Greta wrote:Love and understanding. People, other animals, plants, nature, the cosmos, the arts, sports, etc. The more we love, the more we learn and understand. The more we learn and understand, the more we love.
This learning, loving and understanding business has the absolute opposite effect on me...but only as regards people. If we really look around and see how everything gets screwed up by this species, with very small minor exceptions, the miseries inflicted so gratuitously, nonchalantly and perversely, you know for certain there is NO god, otherwise he would have exterminated the slimy bastards a long time ago. Having said that, it's a good thing the world still hosts people like you and Skip. But, speaking for myself, as must be the case, finding the dark red exit door before the movie is over is not what I would consider to be a premature loss.

Obvious Leo
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:35 pm

Dubious wrote:
Greta wrote:Love and understanding. People, other animals, plants, nature, the cosmos, the arts, sports, etc. The more we love, the more we learn and understand. The more we learn and understand, the more we love.
This learning, loving and understanding business has the absolute opposite effect on me...but only as regards people. If we really look around and see how everything gets screwed up by this species, with very small minor exceptions, the miseries inflicted so gratuitously, nonchalantly and perversely, you know for certain there is NO god, otherwise he would have exterminated the slimy bastards a long time ago. Having said that, it's a good thing the world still hosts people like you and Skip. But, speaking for myself, as must be the case, finding the dark red exit door before the movie is over is not what I would consider to be a premature loss.
If you're living such a shitty life why don't you change it? I presume you're of sound mind and over the age of consent.

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Greta
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:03 pm

Dubious wrote:
Greta wrote:Love and understanding. People, other animals, plants, nature, the cosmos, the arts, sports, etc. The more we love, the more we learn and understand. The more we learn and understand, the more we love.
This learning, loving and understanding business has the absolute opposite effect on me...but only as regards people. If we really look around and see how everything gets screwed up by this species, with very small minor exceptions, the miseries inflicted so gratuitously, nonchalantly and perversely, you know for certain there is NO god, otherwise he would have exterminated the slimy bastards a long time ago. Having said that, it's a good thing the world still hosts people like you and Skip. But, speaking for myself, as must be the case, finding the dark red exit door before the movie is over is not what I would consider to be a premature loss.
I remember misanthropy. You know how I got over it? I separated myself more from humans - limited the dose. I love people, but only in limited doses. They are too intense and demanding in large doses and I marvel at how extroverts handle it and even crave it. Moving out to live alone was the kindest thing I ever did to myself and greatly improved my attitude towards people. That and retirement. Blessed peace.

The thing is, no matter how sneaky, nasty, cruel etc that people can be, you have to remember we are all innocents. You. Me. Leo. Skip. Dalek. Trump. Obama. Osama bin Laden. The whole damn zoo. All innocents, starting out screaming, terrified and clueless, without a manual, just improvising and spending a fair bit of our lives still fearful and clueless. Humans are also capable of being incredibly kind, intelligent and generally decent. We are not bad, just capable of doing a lot of things, positive and negative.

Then again, the problem with a lot of people is they think the human world is the be-all-and-end-all. I get great pleasure from nature, big and small. I love watching insects, especially ants and spiders. I like to look at the sky and try to imagine just how big the Earth is because we are so laughably tiny by comparison, despite our delusions of grandeur. Innocent. I enjoy tracking the weather and the physics of nature generally and trying to better understand how it works. You don't need humans to feel love and wonder. If humans annoy you, find an animal, plant or rock (or artwork/music) and consider their fascinating attributes and hidden complexity. Humans are even more amazing (than other critters but, as you say, they can be hard work.

I'd like to tell you that these are the things that I get out of bed for in the morning, but in truth it's usually gastric reflux, neck pain and night sweats :lol:. The ageing process is something I don't love - at least the physical side.

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Greta
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:15 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:Hallelujah! Go tell it on the mountain, sister, because thou knowest that thy redeemer liveth. People twist their minds into pretzels over nothing when they're looking for a meaning in life because the goalposts are forever shifting as we go along. We all know that the destination of life is oblivion so obviously the destination's got fuck-all to do with the meaning of it, which leaves us with only one clear alternative. The meaning of life lies in the journey of life and it doesn't matter a rat's arse how we pursue this journey as long as get a buzz out of it. Thus spake the crumbling hippy.
Praise de Lord, three hail Marys and bottle of gin!

I have had so much fun being cynical in my life but when we get real and stop kidding ourselves, we have to forget about the lotus munchers and just accept that love is pretty fundamental to us.

Nobody knows that the destination of life is oblivion, Leo, not even you. We simply don't know, but the result is the same - life is for savouring, if you can. We are damn lucky that we can savour it. I couldn't handle being an oppressed refugee with all the brutality, exploitation, exposure, hunger, thirst, disease, etc. Every day I feel profound gratitude for my soft life, because I'm way too lame to have survived a truly hard life!

Dalek Prime
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:51 pm

Everyone feel better, now, having slain the dragon of truth? You folks are like cave people huddled around a campfire of love to keep out the bugaboos of the unknown.

You guys kill me. Someone comes in and sings "all you need is love" and everyone goes soft in the head. Yeah, the cool chemical feel we get when good shit happens is great. But it only sugar coats the uncaring nature of existence. And someone needs to be there to remind you occasionally of it. So I designate myself... You're welcome. I know my efforts are (not) appreciated.

And do me a favour? Cut the crap about me needing love, a hug, a laxative or an enema. All seem to come to me in due course. But just because I van find joy, doesn't change my mind that it's somehow worth throwing others into the sacrificial volcano god of existence, okay?

Skip
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Skip » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:41 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:Everyone feel better, now, having slain the dragon of truth? You folks are like cave people huddled around a campfire of love to keep out the bugaboos of the unknown.
I don't much care about 'everyone'; I've never met everyone, and gads know I wouldn't like to! But I feel better.
I did something like Greta - distanced myself from the overpowering, terrifying insanity of humans en masse. I was not quite 30 when I realized - with the clarity of a hatchet between the eyes - that our kind is doomed: that we cannot save ourselves. That made me quite unhappy for a number of years.

Well, sort of, when I thought of it. Most of the time, I wasn't thinking of it, cause I kept busy earning my rent, being active at the fringes of politics and social reform, trying to save skunks and trees and whatnot, painting pictures, training a great big lummox of a mongrel dog to stop jumping on people, learning to cook, writing essays... Turns out, I'm incapable of sustained misanthropy. They're too goddam interesting.
But the interest is better pursued at a safe remove from the subject. Since moving to the country, I've been much happier. After retirement, even more so.
You guys kill me.
I don't think so; not this pacific cabal. But you can find enough volunteers, anywhere in the world.
Someone comes in and sings "all you need is love" and everyone goes soft in the head. Yeah, the cool chemical feel we get when good shit happens is great. But it only sugar coats the uncaring nature of existence. And someone needs to be there to remind you occasionally of it. So I designate myself... You're welcome. I know my efforts are (not) appreciated.
See, the misunderstanding is: WE KNOW!
Life's a piece of shit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, keep 'em laughin as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

So-bloody-what? Eating lemons won't help.

And do me a favour? Cut the crap about me needing love, a hug, a laxative or an enema. All seem to come to me in due course. But just because I van find joy, doesn't change my mind that it's somehow worth throwing others into the sacrificial volcano god of existence, okay?
Okay. Your mind, digestive system and volcano are off limits.

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Lacewing
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Lacewing » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:47 pm

Dalek Prime wrote: Yeah, the cool chemical feel we get when good shit happens is great. But it only sugar coats the uncaring nature of existence.
Dalek, you seem to think that feeling/seeing good isn't as real or truthful as feeling/seeing crappy. That's YOU. And surely you know that it's ALL possible... for ANY of us to experience, however we go about it. I'm guessing we've ALL experienced our own Hells on Earth -- so it's not as if we're oblivious to such things and need you to remind us of it. We're speaking of potentials that evidently irritate you, as I'm guessing many things are arranged in your head to do. And perhaps your pleasure comes from pretending that alternative notions (to yours) are in la-la land, and that YOU are in fact the REALIST... and that YOU are the one speaking THE TRUTH. Whoop-dee-do! What would a world full of Daleks be like... without something to oppose and rage against?

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Lacewing
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Lacewing » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:04 pm

Skip wrote: I did something like Greta - distanced myself from the overpowering, terrifying insanity of humans...
Me too. I LOVE people........................................................ way over there. :D

No really, I love people up close too, but I've found that less weird shit pops up when the interactions retain boundaries of time and space. We seem to be very complex creatures that need to understand and manage OURSELVES most of all. I can definitely be with someone 24/7 in a pleasing fashion... but it requires a certain behavioral template that limits me from fully being myself and fully embracing all else as I would do otherwise... and I really, really, really like letting my energy loose, and doing everything more passionately without fear of stepping on someone, or being stepped on. That's how it feels to me right now. I fully accept that it could change... and I'll shift to some new vibration where I can do all of that completely surrounded with people! But for whatever reason, stepping back and getting perspective away from all the noise (at least that's what it has felt like) has been very useful and insightful and exhilarating for me.

Dalek Prime
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:10 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: Yeah, the cool chemical feel we get when good shit happens is great. But it only sugar coats the uncaring nature of existence.
Dalek, you seem to think that feeling/seeing good isn't as real or truthful as feeling/seeing crappy. That's YOU. And surely you know that it's ALL possible... for ANY of us to experience, however we go about it. I'm guessing we've ALL experienced our own Hells on Earth -- so it's not as if we're oblivious to such things and need you to remind us of it. We're speaking of potentials that evidently irritate you, as I'm guessing many things are arranged in your head to do. And perhaps your pleasure comes from pretending that alternative notions (to yours) are in la-la land, and that YOU are in fact the REALIST... and that YOU are the one speaking THE TRUTH. Whoop-dee-do! What would a world full of Daleks be like... without something to oppose and rage against?
Quiet and peaceful, perhaps. I do tend to like my alone time.

Anyways, message received. I'll try to lighten up a bit.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skip
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Skip » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:18 pm

Brazil's declared war on zika. I wonder whether the nation of zika has reciprocated. They're all urging their flying mounts to stop wasting bites on old men and prepubescent boys: zoom in on the young, fertile women, before we're sprayed to extinction... then Nature will have to come up with another inefficient human-control method and mankind will have to retaliate with another ineffective weapon, the fallout from which is as yet incalculable... and so on.
None of this matters, except to the people and mosquitos involved, to whom it is a matter of life and death.
Life and death don't matter, except to those experiencing it.

Skip
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Skip » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:24 pm

Lacewing wrote: We seem to be very complex creatures that need to understand and manage OURSELVES most of all. I can definitely be with someone 24/7 in a pleasing fashion... but it requires a certain behavioral template that limits me from fully being myself and fully embracing all else as I would do otherwise... and I really, really, really like letting my energy loose, and doing everything more passionately without fear of stepping on someone, or being stepped on. ...
That, right there, is the central issue of civilization.
If we could figure out how to limit our numbers so that small communities of co-operative humans are placed far apart from competing ones, we might be able to achieve some kind of balance and sanity.
Might.

Dubious
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Dubious » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:40 pm

Obvious Leo wrote: I presume you're of sound mind and over the age of consent.
I presume the same thing about you but I can't always be sure. Would you deny me my own humanistic solution to the human race problem!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Greta wrote:Humans are also capable of being incredibly kind, intelligent and generally decent.
I'm sure that's true. It also would have been nice to have known a few without the thick outer layers of hypocrisy, corruption and lies enclosing it.

To me the human race literally started off as a localized cancer that went into metastasis and infected the entire organism which hosts it. Cancer has always been preeminent in its power to overcome and even destroy the things that would cure it.

Anyone cognizant of how from the beginning events unfolded on this planet - really looks hard at it - can only come to the conclusion that we live in the landfill area of the galaxy. But that isn't completely our fault. We aren't as disgusting as we are on purpose. Nature gave us the intelligence toxin without any neutralizer to contain its more insidious side-effects which unfortunately yields a portrait more akin to the picture of Dorian Gray.

Image

Obvious Leo
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Re: What really matters?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:10 pm

Dubious wrote:Would you deny me my own humanistic solution to the human race problem!
As a humanist myself I wouldn't deny you anything, mate. However as a biologist I reject the idea of a human race problem. Nature managed perfectly well for billions of years without homo sapiens and she'll manage just fine without us when we're gone. Within a few million years after we manage to engineer our own Armageddon it would take some highly sophisticated technology even to figure out that we'd ever been here at all. Maybe you're just a bit pissed off that you'll never get to see how the story plays out. I know I am but that's just because I'm a curious bugger and not because I think it'll make a scrap of difference.

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