Letter on Education

[tbieter]

The following remarkable letter to the editor was published on November 15 in the St. Paul Pioneer Press: Its of interest because the St. Paul school district has one of the largest achievement gaps (between white and black students) in the U.S. The district hired a California company to do a study for millions of dollars. The company recommended reducing the suspension rate of black students. The company's report accused the white teachers of racism. I heard the school superintendent blame the achievement gap and disproportionate suspension rate on poverty and mental illness. There have been many more adverse conditions (riotous fighting and students bringing guns to school, etc) resulting from the idiot policies of the superintendent and school board.

The gap is parental
The achievement gap is not racial. It is not cultural. It is not socio-economic. It is parental. All children deserve the chance to learn. But how is a child supposed to achieve anything academically if he or she has never been taught any desire to learn, any manners, any respect for others? If parents show no interest in their child's education, never participate, never encourage or praise honest effort, never model acceptable behavior, how can a child be expected to behave in class, let alone learn?
A love of learning, an understanding of the lifelong value of an education, self-discipline, cooperation and respect for others are gifts any loving, responsible parent can give their child, no matter their race, culture or income. When they fail to do so, they are bitterly cheating not only their own child but every other child in that classroom where the chance to learn is spoiled.
I don't know how to solve this, but if we can't even call it by name -- inadequate parenting -- how can we even begin? This is a social problem, not an educational problem and expecting the schools to fix it is complis insanity goes on?
Casey Peterson, St. Paul

This letter reflects an analysis of causality and of sound educational theory.

[Jaded Sage]

Yep. Inadequate parenting. How do we get people to want to be better parents? Surely, there is no job more important or more sacred.

I've noticed many parents teach manners, and then do not practice them themselves, and then the children stop as they get older. "Do as I say, not as I do," doesn't work. Moreover, it is not only parents who influence children. They often look to peers and adults to set the pace and mood. More responsible than anyone except for the parents themselves are the elders, who should command the most respect of anyone.

[A_Seagull]

This problem goes way beyond just St Paul school. I would even venture to say that it is universal. And I agree parenting is at the root of the problem.

IMO education is the great leveller. Someone who is well educated and understands the ways of the world can go anywhere and be successful.

And as the letter asks: How can we begin to solve it?

Perhaps the less successful parents do not want their kids to be academically successful. Instead they want their kids to grow up to be like themselves.

Perhaps also they do not believe that their kids can be successful.

It is no good asking a school to educate kids that don't value education and don't want to learn.

Perhaps it is a job for primary schools to educate kids that: with a good education they can pretty much do anything they want; but without a good education they may have no choice except to be shunted from one tedious job to another.

[cladking]

It's not the parents. It's the entire educational system that is afraid to hurt anyone's feelings. The problem is there are no consequences for poor results. It's starts at thew top in Washington where the faiuled educational establishment got thre biggest funding increase in history a few years back. It's at the school boards which aren'tr accountable no matter how badly their schools do. The LA school board can't graduate 20% of the boys yet they have time to declare war on thestate of Arizona. It's in the schools where principals can't fire poor teachers and the classroom where teachers aren't allowed to teach, aren't allowed to punish, and aren't allowed to even flunkl their students. Most aren't allowed to defend themselves from attack.

Of course the most serious problem is the children are unaccountable. They aren't pnished but rather their smilie face is withheld. Some children can still get an education under such poor conditions but, obviously, this isn't the way to teach most boys in the inner city. So instead we have a handicapper general (...so it goes) who'll bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. We'll pretend there is no difference instead of addressing the obvious differences. Meanwhile we'll be turning out ever more fodder for drug use, distribution, welfare, and prisons.

It's expanding and fewer and fewer kids are getting educations. Already the quality of the education has suffered severely. It now takes 16 years of school to produce what was once done in twelve and these graduates are almost more indoctrinated than they are educated. This is what we deserve for not holding our leaders to standards. This is what we deserve for shirking our duty as citizens. This is what we get for voting our pocketbooks and voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Skip]

Black people are bad parents because they work three part time jobs, from which they'd be fired if they took time to attend PTA meeting and maybe don't have don't have absolute blind faith in the white educational system that strips their neighbourhood schools of funds and doesn't pay their teachers a living wage, while giving tax refunds to rich white people so they can send their kids to a better-equipped, better-funded, safer, nicer private school?

Contrarywise, you could try giving those kids a decent meal, smaller class sizes, some books and a roof that doesn't leak.

Yes, I'm a socialist.

[cladking]

Black people are bad parents because they work three part time jobs, from which they'd be fired if they took time to attend PTA meeting and maybe don't have don't have absolute blind faith in the white educational system that strips their neighbourhood schools of funds and doesn't pay their teachers a living wage, while giving tax refunds to rich white people so they can send their kids to a better-equipped, better-funded, safer, nicer private school?

Contrarywise, you could try giving those kids a decent meal, smaller class sizes, some books and a roof that doesn't leak.

Yes, I'm a socialist.

No!

They've been "given" too much. Giving is the damn problem.

Something must be demanded of them and something must be demanded of the adults in charge. If the adults can't teach there should be repercussions and new adults brought in. The kids need to be hell to a standard and if they fail then they are punished and if they succeed they are rewarded. The government and their policies have failed and this is nowhere more obvious than inner city schools.

Obviously if a child is hungry he should be fed but when he throws it in your face he must be punished and not given a frownie face. Children need guidance and structure and it is not being provided at home or at school. They must be taught the meaning of the word "no" by the time they are one or it will hamper their progress at school and result in lots of punishment.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Too easy.

Parents have time, money, jobs, marriages, culture. All these resources are not evenly spread between parents and black parents (when they are together) tend to have less of all of these things.

I would also not discount the inherent racism (even unintentional) amongst teachers, who are likely to have lower expectations of black students.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Black people are bad parents because they work three part time jobs, from which they'd be fired if they took time to attend PTA meeting and maybe don't have don't have absolute blind faith in the white educational system that strips their neighbourhood schools of funds and doesn't pay their teachers a living wage, while giving tax refunds to rich white people so they can send their kids to a better-equipped, better-funded, safer, nicer private school?

Contrarywise, you could try giving those kids a decent meal, smaller class sizes, some books and a roof that doesn't leak.

Yes, I'm a socialist.

No!

They've been "given" too much. Giving is the damn problem. .

What kind of shit newspapers do you read to hold such a stupid view?

[Skip]

FUX network punditry.
Poor people are given too much.
By whom?
And what would be the 'correct' amount to invest in the future of half the country's youth?
But, hey, prisons are a whole lot more profitable than schools.

[cladking]

Too easy.

Parents have time, money, jobs, marriages, culture. All these resources are not evenly spread between parents and black parents (when they are together) tend to have less of all of these things.

I would also not discount the inherent racism (even unintentional) amongst teachers, who are likely to have lower expectations of black students.

Bull shit.

It's against the law now for whites to be racist. They'll be charged with a hate crime and get twenty years while murderers walk free. Blacks can scream cry or throw a fit about whites or beat them mercilessly but this is merely an expression of their civil rights. Apparently such crimes aren't even investigated unless the victim is a cop. Whites are often required to give blacks preferential treatment but blacks are not and there's no law saying they must. How many white kids are in college by means of black organizations? Any sort of racism is not allowed in whites.

BUT THIS IS NOT A RACE ISSUE. It is the government depriving kids of an education especially in the inner city. You do the math but 90% of suburban boys graduate high school AND DESPITE FAR HIGHER SPENDING PER STUDENT IN THE INNER CITY only some 20% graduate high school. Of those few who do graduate most will need remedial work to progress to college. The idea that blacks aren't as smart is simply inane. Even if they weren't as smart they sure as hell wouldn't all be missing an education. The problem is necessarily elsewhere. Until this problem is addressed blacks are going to continue to do poorly and require more resources to fail.

Rhetoric won't solve these problems. A different perspective and different methods will. Draconian solutiuons are indicated since millions of lives per year are just being destroyed. Failing this just disband the school boards and put anyone else in charge. Then hold them accountable for results and not intentions. The road to hell and failed schools is paved with the best intentions.

[cladking]

FUX network punditry.
Poor people are given too much.
By whom?
And what would be the 'correct' amount to invest in the future of half the country's youth?
But, hey, prisons are a whole lot more profitable than schools.

It's the status quo that that supports the quisling media and prisons for profit. But the real money is in creating demand for illegal drugs. The real money is in a swinging door justice system and a massive police state.

And just to be clear spending more money on inner city schools will exascerbate the problem. No amount of money applied to this educational system will improve it.

The best bet is draconian budget cuts across the board and especially in the inner city. Give the teachers the money and demand results and the problem will go away in six weeks. Teachers get far more money and the schools operate on a fraction of their current budgets.

[Skip]

It's the status quo that that supports the quisling media and prisons for profit.

Who is the 'status quo' and where does he/she/it get his/her/its money? Or do they support the media in some other sense - as physical structures or emotional validation? Support has several meanings. I'm not sure what "quisling" means, either, as applied to [which?] media. Nor am I clear on how media - by default, I'm assuming electronic dispersal of information - are held up by the same support structure as private prisons. If you would care to clarify those words and financial relationships, that would be helpful.

But the real money is in creating demand for illegal drugs.

I'd have to agree that that is an extremely lucrative market.

The real money is in a swinging door justice system and a massive police state.

Indeed! But I do believe the private prisons are part of this enterprise, or at least profit from it.

And just to be clear spending more money on inner city schools will exascerbate the problem. No amount of money applied to this educational system will improve it.

It could be tried all the same. But if it can't be improved, then perhaps shutting it down entirely and starting something new is the answer.
Any suggestions as to how the alternate system would function?
Elaborate on:

Give the teachers the money and demand results and the problem will go away in six weeks.

After draconian cuts, what money is given to the which teachers? What specific results are being demanded of these teachers?
I suspect it's the teachers who would be gone in six weeks, not the problem.

[cladking]

Give the teachers the money and demand results and the problem will go away in six weeks.

After draconian cuts, what money is given to the which teachers? What specific results are being demanded of these teachers?
I suspect it's the teachers who would be gone in six weeks, not the problem.

It takes six weeks for a kid tolearn how to read and write. Improvements will be dramatic and immediate.

Most of the money spent on education is frittered away to support enormous bureaucracies, lobbyists, and just about everyone else. Just stop it. Fire the whole damn lot of them for cause. We can cut funding about 75% and with what's left over teachers can give themselves nice pay raises and hire back anyone capable of helping them run their classrooms and the school. Let the teachers decide whichg teachers get sacked and which get huge pay raises. Most teachers will probably be happy to take on larger class sizes since with the ability to punish students they can still maintain control. Give them the power and responsibility. Hold them to standards. If they fail get someone else to do it.

Teachers used to have larges classes of all different ages and each student got a good education. Very few still get a good education and it only happens if he is self motivated because schools don't motivate. A lot of kids are only learning to hate education. They are learning feelgood slogans and group think. They get out of school with no jobs, no education, and no hope.

[Skip]

It takes six weeks for a kid tolearn how to read and write. Improvements will be dramatic and immediate.

Where did you get this statistic? How nearly universal is it? Where has it been tested and proved?

We can cut funding about 75% and with what's left over teachers can give themselves nice pay raises and hire back anyone capable of helping them run their classrooms and the school.

So, you keep the actual school building? What about lighting and heating? Repairs? Books and writing materials? Is one teacher supposed to take care of all that, besides teaching and disciplining, or do they take turns, or what? Do they cook lunch for the kids, too? Clean the bathrooms? Patrol for peanut allergy? Shovel the parking lot?

Most teachers will probably be happy to take on larger class sizes since with the ability to punish students they can still maintain control.

You issuing them machine-guns? 'Cos controlling 30-35 armed teenagers may not be that easy, while also showing every one of them how to form cursive capitals. I guess we won't get much past basic reading.

Give them the power and responsibility. Hold them to standards. If they fail get someone else to do it.

There's always the army. Just like now.

Teachers used to have larges classes of all different ages and each student got a good education.

No they didn't. The mixed-age classes in rural schools were rarely more than 30 children; more commonly 15-20. Nobody got a good education. They got basic skills, sufficient for the farm or factory work of a hundred years ago. A few exceptional students who were willing and allowed to put in extra time - and lucky enough to have a tutor and a lender of books - got away to the city and higher education.

A lot of kids are only learning to hate education. They are learning feelgood slogans and group think.

Which? Those are opposites.

They get out of school with no jobs, no education, and no hope.

If the jobs have been shipped off to China, they won't get jobs even if their teachers hit them with baseball bats. If a Romanian programmer or Russian graphic artist works for less, it doesn't matter how well-trained the American is. Industry moved off-shore, in search not of better educated workers, but cheaper ones.

You haven't researched the subject all that thoroughly.

[cladking]

Which? Those are opposites.

No they aren't. One is education and the other is indoctrination. The former requires effort the latter only that you don't think.

You haven't researched the subject all that thoroughly.

You're right of course. I haven't so much researched it as lived it.

It sounds like you agree things are going to hell. So why would you think the cause isn't in the classroom? We spend more money than anyywhere else and we spend more than ever before and we are getting worse and worse results. What would you suggest is the cause? I suppose you think all we need to do is spend more money and plead with the little miscreants to try to behave so everyone else can get an education? I'm sure you don't see "No child left behind" as pandering to the dimwits and miscreants. Maybe if some of these little brats knew they would get left behind they'd actually turn on their brains and try to learn. Maybe if the adults took back the schools a few people could grow up to run things in fifty years.