Transcendence

[HexHammer]

Hi Hex! Come on, give me your opinion about my OP. How would you demonstrate to a machine of having consciousness?

Any one with minimum of knowledge of neurology, would know that some intelligences can work independently or worth together.

What most confuses about consciousness, is that they think it's binary, but when it scales. They don't think of machines able to have low kind of awareness.

Specially with new brain chips from IBM I don't doubt machines able to have awareness on low lvl, when they can respond to outside stimuli.
Scientists have even condensed a primitive worm brain into a robot.

Many refuses the idea of awareness, because machines can't improvise, but ..so can't so many humans, and that is besides the point of awareness.

Unfortunately too many will reject awareness out of ignorance, when they haven't read about the topic, this really makes me miss admission to philosophy, so we don't have to deal with fools and ignorant, ..then I'm a foolish person and ignorant about so many things.

Thank you, Hex. Very interesting. I could almost assume that improvisation is a great intuition of your point of view.

[..]

Improvisation is a good point, but perhaps machine could reply that its random mode of computing could be a way to improvise, I guess.
Anyway, I agree and enjoyed all that you wrote.

Improvisation is only part of the tale, another is thinking abstract, which in itself is a very relative matter.

Machines can calculate what I call "linear logic" in petabytes per sec, eeeaaassily!!! Resulting in overpowered chess machines that can beat even our best of humans.
..but when it comes to what I call "abstract logic" like language, then we can't make computers have a very mid complex dialogue, then it falls short. (we have had chat bots and robot sellers for over a decade, that can master simple conversations)

[David Handeye]

Thinking abstract! I like it. I'm not so keen on abstract logic, but language could be a very powerful knock down for any machine, actually. Grazie Hex

[HexHammer]

I'm not so keen on abstract logic

Hmm? Please explain you self.

[Ginkgo]

I have just watched Transcendence, the movie. I don't know if you have, there's a point in which Morgan Freeman asks the machine -can you prove to have a consciousness?
And the machine replies -and you? Could you prove to have a consciousness?
Morgan Freeman could not reply the machine. Why?

If you ask a machine if it is conscious it can be programmed to reply, "yes". We can doubt that a machine is conscious, but in order for a machine to doubt our consciousness, it would need the capacity to actually doubt.

[thedoc]

I have just watched Transcendence, the movie. I don't know if you have, there's a point in which Morgan Freeman asks the machine -can you prove to have a consciousness?
And the machine replies -and you? Could you prove to have a consciousness?
Morgan Freeman could not reply the machine. Why?

If you ask a machine if it is conscious it can be programmed to reply, "yes". We can doubt that a machine is conscious, but in order for a machine to doubt our consciousness, it would need the capacity to actually doubt.

Unless it was written into the program by the human operator.

[Ginkgo]

I have just watched Transcendence, the movie. I don't know if you have, there's a point in which Morgan Freeman asks the machine -can you prove to have a consciousness?
And the machine replies -and you? Could you prove to have a consciousness?
Morgan Freeman could not reply the machine. Why?

If you ask a machine if it is conscious it can be programmed to reply, "yes". We can doubt that a machine is conscious, but in order for a machine to doubt our consciousness, it would need the capacity to actually doubt.

Unless it was written into the program by the human operator.

Good point. If we formulate "doubt" into a machine, this will always be explained in terms of algorithms, mechanisms and binary computations. It may well be possible to say the human brain works in a similar fashion, but at this stage a machine doesn't have the capacity to experience doubt. I know what it is like to doubt, but a machine doesn't. Well, not at this stage of technological development. Might be different in the future.

[Ginkgo]

Leaving aside the computational and experiential aspects to doubting, there is a third problem when it comes to machine doubting. Our doubting is usually accompanied by bodily actions. Doubting is usually accompanied by bodily expressions such as scratching of the head or chin. Turing our eyes to the ceiling, or creating deep furrows on our brow. AI manufactures now take the problem of embodied cognition seriously.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition

[thedoc]

How do you differentiate what is written into the program by a human operator, and what the machine has created for itself? When the machine can create concepts that are beyond what is written into it's programs, then I would consider the possibility that it has become conscious. As long as it stays within the confines of the program as written by a human operator, it is only mimicking that operator, and nothing else, it is not self aware.

[Dalek Prime]

This may be of interest.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

[thedoc]

This may be of interest.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Interesting yes, but as long as the computer is only an intermediary between the human interrogator and the human operator, it is no more sophisticated, in principle, than a slate tablet that messages can be written on.

[Dalek Prime]

This may be of interest.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Interesting yes, but as long as the computer is only an intermediary between the human interrogator and the human operator, it is no more sophisticated, in principle, than a slate tablet that messages can be written on.

I agree. Searle was arguing against strong AI, which is why I pointed it out to you.

Speaking of comparisons of computers, they are ultimately the same. Yes, greater capacity than others, but limited by computability ie. Nothing can be done on a supercomputer that can't be done on the simplest Turing machine or through lambda calculus.

[humblesoul]

Can you prove to have a consciousness...does not really make sense as a question. The phrasing should be "Can you prove that you are capable of consciousness?" Or, "Can you prove that you are conscious?" I think that's what was trying to be asked however I have not seen the movie.

Point is, consciousness is just another word for awareness. And how can we prove that we are aware? Well, quite simply I think, we can all agree that we are aware of each other. I can prove that I am conscious by being aware of this very question, and then answering it. By answering the question I have proved that I have listened to it, which then had a reaction to produce a corresponding answer. So then, the very act of listening and responding accordingly is proof of consciousness.

We can extend this to other life forms as well. Although plants and animals may not be "self" conscious. Who is to say that they are not capable of some awareness? When a fly lands on a venus fly trap, the venus fly trap is aware and immediately responds accordingly. Does this action prove the plant is conscious? I would say yes.

J.Krishnamute argues there is no 'my' consciousness, your consciousness, or their consciousness; but that there is only Consciousness, period. And it is a shared consciousness that we all experience in different ways and in varying degrees. You can observe this in human beings by noting how some people are not fully aware, not all there, so to speak. Sometimes we can all act like robots, especially while at work, unconsciously hammering out our repetitive, monotonous duties. While others are extremely aware and meticulously observant nearly all of the time. Which I think is a skill that we can all get better at by simply focusing on our breath, being fully attentive and remaining in the present moment.

Now where does consciousness come from? What is the very root of consciousness? Maybe this is another topic altogether, and I've written too much already lol. Good day.

[David Handeye]

I'm not so keen on abstract logic

Hmm? Please explain you self.

aaah, sorry Hex, I meant I'm not so skilled, involved.

[David Handeye]

I have just watched Transcendence, the movie. I don't know if you have, there's a point in which Morgan Freeman asks the machine -can you prove to have a consciousness?
And the machine replies -and you? Could you prove to have a consciousness?
Morgan Freeman could not reply the machine. Why?

If you ask a machine if it is conscious it can be programmed to reply, "yes". We can doubt that a machine is conscious, but in order for a machine to doubt our consciousness, it would need the capacity to actually doubt.

Buongiorno Ginkgo,
I was referring to the movie, actually. In the movie, a scientist (Johnny Depp) has been shot and is going to die. With the help of other scientists he makes his "upload" into a machine, a super computer he had invented. He uploaded his "consciousness", of course. So, as Hex says, he/it is aware, has awareness.

[Ginkgo]

I have just watched Transcendence, the movie. I don't know if you have, there's a point in which Morgan Freeman asks the machine -can you prove to have a consciousness?
And the machine replies -and you? Could you prove to have a consciousness?
Morgan Freeman could not reply the machine. Why?

If you ask a machine if it is conscious it can be programmed to reply, "yes". We can doubt that a machine is conscious, but in order for a machine to doubt our consciousness, it would need the capacity to actually doubt.

Buongiorno Ginkgo,
I was referring to the movie, actually. In the movie, a scientist (Johnny Depp) has been shot and is going to die. With the help of other scientists he makes his "upload" into a machine, a super computer he had invented. He uploaded his "consciousness", of course. So, as Hex says, he/it is aware, has awareness.

I haven't seen the movie, but I am assuming the suggestion is that it is possible to download our consciousness onto a computer. Proponents of strong AI claim this will be possible in the future. The interesting aspect from my point of view is that if such a thing were possible then it might be possible to live forever. Well, so long as there are computers.

In my opinion if we think we can down load consciousness in the form of a binary code then we are mistaken. At this stage such a system doesn't encapsulate awareness. On the other hand, given the future complexity of binary codes, will awareness emerge from such a system? Again, I don't think so, but if we choose to throw quantum computes into the future mix, then I can't say this won't be a game changer.