Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

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MozartLink
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Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by MozartLink »

I wish to prove once and for all that I, including everyone else who suffers from depression and/or anhedonia (anhedonia being an absence of pleasure), that we are all inferior human beings with inferior worthless lives. I wish to prove once and for all that pleasure is the only good thing in life and is the only thing that makes us as human beings good people and is the only thing that makes our lives anything good while suffering is the only bad thing in life and is the only thing that makes us as human beings bad and our lives bad. And that, as for everything else in life besides our own pleasure and suffering, that these things are all neutral (neither good or bad). Even being a deepsighted, profound, more creative and intelligent person, etc. through your suffering is all neutral and does not make you a better person at all. I wish to prove that everything in this universe without our pleasure has no good value whatsoever and that it is only our pleasure that makes us and our lives good. I wish to prove this because I am enraged towards those people who offend me by belittling my lost feelings of pleasure by telling me things such as that my feelings of pleasure such as love, motivation, etc. are not all that important and that there are greater things in life and that I can still find reason to accept my severe chronic anhedonia and still find good value about me and my life through just my thoughts and actions alone without my pleasure. I am fed up with these philosophical values and beliefs others have and I wish to instead prove my hedonistic values and beliefs as being true. I will do everything I can through science to get this tested and proven as either being true or false. I will present this packet and other packets to intelligent scientists so they can get it tested and proven. I am not a scientist and do not have some expensive lab down in the basement that I can use to test any of this. Nor do I wish to spend years and years studying up on science as well as philosophy to gain a better insight into these scientific and philosophical claims and arguments I am making. This would be because I am just not that type of person and am not interested in studying up on science and philosophy. My sole interest is proving everyone and this life as being neutral and inferior without our pleasure. My job and acheived hard work and efforts come from me coming up with these ideas, claims, and arguments while it would be the job and acheived hard work and efforts of intelligent scientists to get this tested and proven. Some intelligent scientists might read this and think that it is utter nonsense. However, just because something sounds like nonsense to you doesn't mean that it is at all. There were plenty of ideas and such that others deemed as nonsense. But as it eventually turned out, these ideas were actually true and were great discoveries. I have every reason to believe everything I'm saying is true and I am eventually going to explain why that is. To conclude this paragraph, I would also like to say that me viewing this life as inferior and me living my life trying to prove that this life is inferior gives me a sense of power, empowerment, and the sense of being some superior god-like being looking down upon this pathetic inferior life of suffering, imperfections, and mortality in which there is no afterlife of eternal joy as a reward for all our suffering.

Now I am going to say one more thing here which is that if you are going to say something such as that my claims cannot even be scientifically tested in the first place and that there is no way to determine whether they are true or false, then I should say here that philosophy (despite it not being something scientific), it does have some scientific support. Therefore, if philosophy can be scientifically evidenced as being something likely to be true or false, then why can't this also hold for my assertions? Also, I have every reason to believe that my assertions and arguments are true and that they are scientific and not philosophical. Another thing is that I will only read up and study philosophy and science if it means gaining a further insight into how my claims and arguments could be wrong. I would also only study up on science and philosophy if it meant be further perfecting my arguments and claims to be more likely to be true than what they already are now.

I have lost all my pleasure due to anhedonia (which is an absence of pleasure) and the only life that is closest to worth living to me now would be for me to prove this life as well as everyone else as worthless and inferior human beings without their pleasure and that their pleasure is the only thing that makes these people good and their lives good. That, and me living for a possible recovery from this anhedonia in the future and doing all I can to recover my lost pleasure. I wish to be an inspiration to people all around the world and inspire people to kill themselves (but only providing that they have depression and/or anhedonia that will never get better or fully recover). I would have full respect and compassion towards them in wishing for these people to not feel hatred and depression towards themselves and their lives when they go and decide to end their lives. Rather, I want them to feel like powerful superior god-like badasses since they have all their suffering in the palms of their hands and that they can crush it anytime they want by ending their lives. For me to have inspired people all around the world to kill themselves would be the closest thing to making me the greatest person despite my absence of pleasure and would make me a fully innocent and fully compassionate person. But this would only be providing that those suffering people could not move on and find anything else good in their lives.

Now the fact that these depressed and/or anhedonic people have this power and control over their suffering in ending their suffering anytime by ending their lives is the only thing now that is closest to making these types of people the better people despite their absence of pleasure since they would be free of such an inferior worthless life and can no longer be mocked and insluted by this inferior worthless life. Instead, these people would have mocked and insulted the mockery and insults that this life has given these people in return by them choosing to end their lives since that says to this life "I am superior to you and I no longer have to live by your inferior mocking and insulting suffering and imperfections." I realize that there are other attitudes people can have in order to make them instead choose to live on in life anyway without their pleasure. But all our attitudes and actions including everything else in life besides our pleasure and suffering are all neutral and are nothing good or bad as I am going to explain below. Therefore, these people would be much better off ending their lives rather than living neutral lives without their pleasure. Their attitudes in them choosing to end their lives are nothing good or bad, it would just be the best attitude you could have at this point if your ability to experience pleasure could never recover. This is the best attitude they can have and is not an inferior attitude in of itself since they would be using this superior awesome god-like attitude in choosing to cast out and destroy everything that is inferior about them and their lives (in this case, them having no pleasure).

Now I would first encourage and inspire these people to live their lives all they can to try and recover their lost pleasure. Only if they are unable to recover or fully recover it would I then encourage and inspire these people to end their lives. Them having their full complete good lives through them having their full pleasure back is the only thing that matters. If they cannot acheive that, then they should all end their lives.
However, if these people have gone and decided to instead have good and greater value towards other things in life and to live for those things despite their absence or lack of pleasure and that these people do not end their lives as I have suggested, then I would feel sorry for them since they have only demeaned themselves as human beings since they have abandoned the one and only greatest aspect of them as human beings (which would be their pleasure) and have instead chosen to live an inferior worthless life of acceptance and being insulted and mocked by a life that gives them beautiful and great things that they cannot enjoy through their pleasure. I would feel sorry towards them since they are inferior human beings without their pleasure living inferior worthless lives of no very little to no good value and I would feel sorry for them since they have chosen not to end such an inferior existence. These people might not think that way and might very well perceive them and their lives as having good value anyway even without their pleasure. But this would be false and these people are only fooling themselves. I am going to present very convincing reasons as to why that is and how our pleasure really is the only good and greatest thing in life. Also, I wish to be a superior awesome fierce metaphorically spoken god-like being (which is an attitude that is also inspired by the world of anime and its god-like characters). Anime is another name for "Japanese cartoon." I wish to have the attitude of one of these fierce god-like anime beings in looking down upon this life of suffering and imperfections as inferior and looking down upon my own mortality and suffering as inferior. I despise all human limitations and flaws. This would even include me being an atheist and me being aware of the fact that our lifespans are limited in that when we die, we forever remain dead and that there is no afterlife of eternal joy as a reward for all our suffering and that I can never literally be an awesome superior immortal god-like being to satisfy my inspired anime god-like personality. Now this whole process of me having this fierce god-like personality in looking down upon and despising the mortality, imperfections, and suffering of this life is actually not a negative experience for me. This would be a very pleasurable experience for me right now if I had my ability to experience pleasure. In other words, me screaming in my mind, hating, demeaning, and looking down upon those said things would give me a sense of superiority and god-like empowerment and would make me feel like one of those awesome superior god-like megalomaniac beings from the world of anime in which I would feel like I have been bestowed with their god-like forms, life essence, and personalities. For me to be the opposite and to no longer detest those things and for me to accept and be content with those things would make me an utterly inferior human being since I would no longer have the personality traits of those superior god-like anime beings.

One more thing I would like to state here is that some people might say to me that the way I am using science to try and prove this life and everyone as being nothing good at all without pleasure, that this is not what science is about and science is instead about enjoyment and discovery. However, I do not have any pleasure to enjoy science or this universe for that matter in the first place. Therefore, science to me is all about proving how inferior and worthless this life and universe is without our pleasure and how everyone who doesn't have pleasure are inferior and worthless as well.

Now before I begin, I say something here such as that if it weren't for our pleasure and suffering, then moral judgments such as good and bad would not exist. However, that could be false (I'm not sure). But as for the other things I'm saying such as how all our thoughts and actions are nothing more than just thoughts and actions in of themselves and that them being neutral thoughts and actions has nothing to do with us attributing any neutral value to them, this I think is true.

Therefore, I would like to begin by saying that if there was no such thing as pleasure and suffering and all human beings never had any pleasure and suffering, then value judgements such as good and bad would never exist. This is because how we perceive something as good or bad is all a result of our pleasure and suffering. Value judgements such as good and bad are derived from our pleasure and suffering. These value judgements are actually not good or bad at all and it is only our own pleasure and suffering that is good and bad and it is only our own pleasure and suffering that defines us as human beings and our lives as being either good or bad. This is because pleasure and suffering are the only things that encourage and discourage our survival. Our thoughts and personal created meanings are nothing more than the functioning of our brains used for problem solving and analysis and are not our encouraged or discouraged survival. Rather, our value judgments of good and bad refer to what is truly good and bad which would be our pleasure and suffering. If you never had any pleasure or suffering in your life and you were to witness someone else having pleasure or suffering, then you would not be able to perceive their pleasure or suffering as being good or bad. Someone might be able to tell you that their pleasure and suffering are good and bad and you might very well acknowledge it as such. But acknowledging something as good or bad is different than perceiving it as good or bad.

Acknowledging something as being good or bad just comes from simply saying thoughts to yourself such as that "Oh, this is something good or bad, but whatever." But perceiving something as being good or bad is when you actually truly recognize that thing as being good or bad. The only way you can perceive the pleasure or suffering of others as being good or bad is if you were to have pleasure or suffering in your own life.

Also, what goes on in the brain is that our pleasure and suffering which feel good and bad to us, they create emotional memories that make us recognize certain events and things as being good or bad. I will bring up my example here again which is that if you were to experience pleasure from witnessing someone else experiencing pleasure, then this is the only way you would actually recognize this other person experiencing pleasure as being something good since your own pleasure has created an emotional memory of this experience you had. Therefore, if it weren't for your pleasure, then you would not recognize this other person's pleasure as being something good which means that it was only your own pleasure that makes you and your lives good and nothing else and it is only your own pleasure that defines any good meanings you have in life. Without your pleasure, then nothing is good about you and your life and that would even include the emotional memories alone by themselves. If you had no pleasure and just had emotional memories of something being good in your life, then these emotional memories are nothing more than just memories and thoughts telling you that something is good in life when, in reality, these are nothing more than just memories and thoughts and that it is only your own pleasure that is good. The fact is, the only way you were able to recognize things as being good in your life was because you experienced pleasure and that pleasure felt good to you. Therefore, it's the fact that pleasure feels good which makes it the only good thing in your life. All our emotional memories themselves are nothing more than just memories (references) to the very thing that was the one and only truly good thing in our lives which would be our pleasure. This whole concept also applies to bad in that only our suffering is bad since it feels bad. Therefore, since pleasure and suffering feel good and bad, then that means pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad things in life. Since pleasure and suffering are a scientific property which would be the combined functioning of all the atoms and particles in our brains that give us pleasure and suffering, then that means good and bad are also these scientific properties which would be the functioning of the atoms and particles in our minds that give us pleasure and suffering. This is because our pleasure and suffering are the only true good and bad things.
Now some might try to refute me here by saying something such as that how we obtain pleasure in the first place comes from perceiving something as being good and that if what I'm saying is true in that pleasure is the only thing that allows us to perceive good, then this would mean that we would never have pleasure in the first place since we cannot obtain pleasure in the first place without recognizing something as being good since it is our perceptions of something being good in life that sends a pleasurable emotional signal to our brains which allows us to experience pleasure. However, that version of good that comes from our thoughts and such alone is not truly good at all and is only good in a neutral sense while our pleasure is still the only truly good thing. I am now going to explain how this is:

If I were to take one of the functions of our brains such as the functioning of our brains that allows us to think, then we could call this the main function. All our different thoughts we would then call the sub-functions. Same thing for pleasure in that pleasure would be the main function here while all our different feelings of pleasure would all be the sub-functions. Now if we were to take just one sub-function of our pleasure such as a feeling of love, then this feeling obviously feels good. Therefore, all other feelings of pleasure feel good as well since all the sub-functions (all our different feelings of pleasure), they all adhere to the main function in that if one sub-function feels good, then we can immediately conclude that the main function (which would be all other sub-functions), that this main function also feels good. So, in short, if one feeling of pleasure feels good, then that means all other feelings of pleasure feel good as well. Now if we were to take one of the sub-functions of our thinking (such as the word "the"), then if you were to say that word in your mind, that experience would be nothing more than a neutral experience to you and would be neutral to you in which the word "the" is nothing more than just a word to you. Therefore, all other thoughts (all other words, sounds, images, etc.), they are all neutral as well and are nothing truly good or bad at all and are nothing more than just words, sounds, images, etc. If you were to have no knowledge or intelligence and you were to then think of the word 'good' in your mind, then that word would be nothing more than just a word to you (it would be nothing more than a thought). And this would hold true for all other words you have thought up in your mind associated with that word 'good' if you did have knowledge and intelligence to do so. In other words, if you have thought up the phrase in your mind that "Helping others is good," then the word "helping" is neutral, the word "others" is neutral, the word "is" is neutral, and, of course, the word "good" is neutral as I've just said. Therefore, this entire personal meaning you have created in your life (this entire phrase of "Helping others is good"), then that phrase itself is neutral and is nothing more than a neutral experience as well.

Therefore, all our own personal created meanings in life including everything else in life are all neutral (neither good or bad) while only our own pleasure and suffering are good and bad and define us and our lives as being good or bad. Just like how if one of the sub-functions of our pleasure feels good which makes the main function itself as feeling good, then this also holds true in terms of our thoughts in that if just one thought is neutral, then all the rest are neutral as well. Even us recognizing the phrase "Helping others is good" as having meaning to us and as being something good, even our own recognizing of that quoted message as having meaning and being something good is neutral as well. Any other created good meanings we have towards that quoted message or towards anything else in life are all neutral as well. All our created meanings of good and bad are only good and bad in a neutral sense. They are good and bad in the sense that they are just simply the words (thoughts) good and bad. But they are all neutral since they are nothing more than just simply different words, sounds, images, etc. and are nothing more than neutral experiences. So you might be asking that if our own created meanings of good and bad are both good and bad as well as neutral, then would that make them good or bad, or would it make them neutral? The answer to that would be that they are not truly good or bad at all. They are all good and bad only in a fake (neutral) sense as I've just said before. They are just simply references to the things that are truly good and bad which would be our pleasure and suffering.

Also, what I mean by neutral is not the same thing as meaningless. Neutral and meaningless are two different things here. If, for example, you had no knowledge and intelligence and just thought up the word 'good' in your mind, then that word would be meaningless to you since you do not have the necessary knowledge and intelligence to attribute any meanings to that word. However, that is not the same thing as that word being neutral. What I mean by neutral is that when words, sounds, and images are just simply nothing more than just words, sounds, and images even when they do have meaning to you and that even the meanings themselves we have created for those words, sounds, and images are nothing more than just different words, sounds, and images themselves as well. And that entire phrases and entire personal created meanings we have are all nothing more than phrases and personal created meanings. So this is what I mean by neutral in that all our personal created meanings in life do not make us or our lives anything good or greater since they are just nothing more than just thoughts and neutral experiences. Only our pleasure is what allows us to experience the beauty of this universe. As for people who tell me things such as that I can still experience the beauty of this universe through just my thoughts alone and that I can still live a good and beautiful life through just my thoughts and actions alone, these people would obviously be false. I ask you, without my pleasure and if I were to then just sit there and think to myself "Wow, what a beautiful universe and life this is," then what the hell is that? It's nothing more than just a neutral and dead lifeless thought and experience. Pleasure is the only experience that gives us good life and good value as human beings and is the only good experience we can have in life. Even our own actions such as helping others without our pleasure are nothing more than neutral actions and all our good values (thoughts) towards those said actions are neutral as well. Some might tell me that the only reason why all my personal created meanings in life are all neutral to me is only because of the fact that I am attributing a neutral value to them by saying that they are all neutral and nothing more than just different sounds, images, etc. But this would be false. All our thoughts and personal created meanings being neutral has nothing to do with any neutral values we attribute to them. They are all neutral in of themselves and are nothing more than phrases and different words, sounds, and images in of themselves while pleasure and suffering are the only truly good and bad things in life.

Now there is a difference between our personal created meanings being words and phrases in our minds that do have profound and good meaning to us as opposed to the conscious experience of those meanings. What I mean by this is that some people might say that feelings of pleasure are nothing more than the functioning of atoms, chemicals, and particles in our brains and that they are nothing special for this very reason. So if we were to look at pleasure from that perspective alone, then these people would be right in saying that it is nothing special. However, as for the conscious experience of pleasure, that is a very profound experience for many people including myself and is the most good and greatest thing in the world for people like me. Therefore, this would mean that pleasure, in terms of a conscious experience, is good since it always feels good. For you to say that pleasure isn't all that great and important simply because it is just a bunch of atoms, particles, and chemicals would be no different than me saying that a member in your own family who is very important to you due to a profound experience you had of her, that he/she as well as this personal profound experience you had isn't all that great and important simply because it is all a bunch of atoms, particles, and chemicals. He/she might not be all that important in terms of he/she just being the functioning of atoms and particles. However, he/she is important because he/she has a conscious who has conscious experiences such as pain, pleasure, and love.

Now as for pleasure in terms of it being nothing more than atoms, particles, and chemicals, then it would be neutral just from that perspective alone. Therefore, even though our personal created meanings of good and bad are conscious experiences, this conscious experience is actually neutral (meaning, that they are nothing more than just simply different phrases, words, sounds, images, etc.). This conscious experience is neutral even though this conscious experience is actually those words good and bad themselves or any other personal created good or bad meanings. This would be because the only difference between how we perceive something as being good vs perceiving it as being bad or neutral is all based on our attitude which is neutral itself. I am going to give an example of how our attitude is neutral.

If you say to yourself the meaningful phrase of "Helping others is good," then you can look at that 3 ways. You could look at it as being something good in which your facial expression would present a smile and your actions would be geared towards helping others and such. You could look at it as being neutral in which you would have a blank facial expression and won't do anything. Or you could look at it as being something bad in which your facial expression presents a frown and you would do bad deeds and such. But here's the thing. The only difference between those 3 perspectives (attitudes) is that they are just simply a different series of actions and facial expressions while the different thoughts that caused those said facial expressions and actions are still nothing more than just thoughts because our actions and facial expressions are the separate combined functioning of atoms and particles than the combined functioning of atoms and particles that make up our thoughts. Therefore, the thoughts stand alone by themselves as being nothing more than different thoughts while our facial expressions and actions stand alone as being nothing more than different facial expressions and actions. As I said sometime before, everything in this universe is just a bunch of atoms and particles that cannot be defined by our thoughts of good and bad since they are the different combined functioning of atoms and particles that have different function and different properties than the combined atoms and particles that make up our thoughts of good and bad in our minds. I am going to bring up what I said before so you know here as well:

"Since all atoms and particles are separate from the atoms and particles of our pleasure, then to say that harming someone in order to give you pleasure makes your pleasure bad, this would be false because the combined atoms and particles of the person suffering and the combined atoms and particles of our thoughts of good and bad as well as other things do not have the same properties of the combined atoms and particles as a whole that make up our pleasure. It would be no different than saying that, since the combined atoms and particles of a piece of metal possess a certain function and properties (which, in this case, we would call "bad"), then that also makes the combined atoms and particles of other materials the same as well (that this also makes them "bad") which is false."

Therefore, our actions and facial expressions are all just the result of the functioning of atoms and particles that are nothing good or bad at all since our thoughts cannot define them as being such. Even if those things were somehow good or bad in of themselves and even if our thoughts of good and bad could somehow define those things as being good or bad, then it would all still come back to our thoughts alone towards those actions and facial expressions which are still nothing more than just thoughts as I just said here earlier. It all comes back to our thoughts because our minds are what define our perceptions of life. Therefore, it doesn't matter what attitude you have towards any personal created meanings in your life. All those meanings stand alone as just simply being nothing more than different meanings (just simply different words, sounds, phrases, images, etc.) while our attitudes are just simply nothing more than just different facial expressions and different actions.

Now let's pretend that you had no pleasure, no suffering, and no ability to perform actions or to have any facial expressions whatsoever and that you were in a vegetative state 24/7. If you were to then think to yourself the phrase "My life is good and worth living anyway," then that phrase is nothing more than just a spoken phrase in your mind. Any other created good or bad personal meanings in your mind are also nothing more than just phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. Again, me saying that these things are all neutral (nothing more than phrases, words, sounds, images, etc.), this has nothing to do with me attributing a neutral value to those things by saying they are nothing more than phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. They are all nothing more than neutral phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. in of themselves. Let me give an example of how that is. If you attribute a neutral value to any personal created meaning in your mind, then that neutral value does not actually neutralize that meaning you have created. In other words, the atoms and particles in your brain that have created this neutral value do not shut down the atoms and particles in your brain that have created any other personal created meanings in your mind. Any neutral attributed values to your personal created meanings would make them neutral. But only in the sense of them being just words, sounds, images, and phrases. To neutralize something in terms of science would be to either shut something down or to leave it in an unenergized state. Therefore, this does not happen which would mean that the version of neutral that just comes from our value judgments alone has no scientific truth whatsoever to it and is nothing but a thought. What I mean here is that if you created any personal meaning in your mind and then, after attributing a neutral value to it, you then say that this personal created meaning has become neutral, then this would be false. It's false because there is no neutralizing process going on whatsoever in terms of science (your neutral attributed values are not shutting down the atoms and particles of your other created meanings). The true version of neutral would not only be just what I defined in this paragraph, but also in terms of comparison to pleasure being the only good thing in life (that pleasure is the scientific property 'good'). You would then say that everything besides our pleasure and suffering is all neutral when comparing those things to the only true good and bad things in life which would be our pleasure and suffering.
Now when people attribute good value to any personal created meanings in their minds, they think that it somehow makes those personal created meanings something "more." But this would be false. Any attributed good meanings to those personal created meanings do not make them any more or less in any sense whatsoever in terms of science. In other words, the atoms and particles of your good meanings do not increase the function of the atoms and particles of your other personal created meanings. This same concept in this paragraph also applies to bad in that our bad meanings cannot make our personal created meanings or anything else in life any less whatsoever. More and less in terms of science either means more atoms and particles and/or an increase in scientific properties such as mass, energy, etc. Actually, the functioning of the atoms and particles of any good meanings you apply to any other of your personal created meanings I think do technically cause the atoms and particles of those personal created meanings to increase in function since the atoms and particles of your attributed good meanings would gain a connection to those other atoms and particles that created those other meanings. However, bad or neutral values that are attributed would do the same exact thing and increase the functioning of the atoms and particles of those other meanings. So as you can see here. We can only use the words more, less, and neutral in terms of science. But the value judgements that people think of such as good, bad, and neutral are not scientific which would mean that they are false since everything in this universe is the scientific functioning of atoms, particles, etc. that can only be explained through science. People think that meanings such as good make them and their lives including others something "more," that bad makes these things "less," while neutral makes those things "neutral." But this is false as I said before. Therefore, the value judgement version of those words good, bad, and neutral are false while the scientific version of those words are true. The scientific version being pleasure (good), suffering (bad), and the shutting down or disabling of scientific functioning as well as the comparison of other things in life to pleasure and suffering (which we would define here as neutral). The words "more" and "less" can also only be scientific as well since everything in this universe is scientific as I've just explained before. Even words such as "strength" and "weakness" can only be defined in terms of science. If a person is depressed and they then get over it, then this state of mind this person is in of having gotten over his/her depression would be a strong state of mind since how it is that this person has gotten over his/her depression would be because his/her brain has developed more neurons and stronger connections (such as more neurons and stronger connections of areas of the brain that are responsible for turning off the stress and depression responses in the brain). But if this person had to live with his/her depression and it could never recover or fully recover like how it did with this other person, then this person would be weak in terms of science since his/her brain was unable to create the neccessary neurons and connections.

Now I could easily say that pleasure does not feel good and that it instead feels pleasant. Therefore, you might then question my claims of pleasure really being the truly good thing in life and that it instead might not be considered good at all. Rather, that it might be considered pleasant. However, what we define as good is a perceivable favorable outcome. Pleasure is a perceivable favorable outcome in of itself. It is a perceivable good in of itself that has nothing to do with our value judgments. The version of good that comes from our thoughts and actions are nothing more than thoughts and actions as I've said before. But the version of good that comes from our pleasure is the real version of good and that our thoughts of good are only references to this real version of good. Pleasure is something intrinsically good just as hedonism states and it has nothing to do with our thoughts and values as I just said here.

As far as stigma goes, the reason why people who have depression, anhedonia, and/or any other mental illness think that others who tell them that they are weak are the types of people who have stigma against mental illness is because those people with the mental illness think that it is a false judgment. But it is a scientific truth. We who suffer from depression, anhedonia, and/or any other mental illness who are unable to recover from it are weak people. Their minds do not have the neccessary neurons and strength of connection to prevent the mental illness from happening in the first place and that their minds do not have the neccessary neurons and strength of connection to recover from said mental illness in the event that these people are also unable to recover from it.

Now value judgements such as good, bad, and neutral as well as strength and weakness might make us do different actions or not make us perform any actions at all. But as I just said before, our thoughts and personal created meanings are nothing more than just words, phrases, sounds, images, etc. while our actions are nothing more than just actions while everything else in life besides our pleasure and suffering are nothing more than the functioning of atoms and particles.

When people have personal created meanings in life as well as their attributued good or bad value judgments and/or any other attributed value judgments for that matter, these people somehow think that they are all something more than just words, phrases, sounds, and images. They would indeed aknowledge the fact that value judgments such as good and bad are words and are the functioning of the atoms and particles in our minds that have created those meanings. But from there, these people would then say that they are something more than just simply the functioning of atoms and particles and that they are something more than just simply words, sounds, images, and phrases. But this would be false. They are all nothing more than words, sounds, images, and phrases and are nothing more than the functioning of atoms and particles and they cannot be anything more than that. So what these people define as "something more" would have to be our pleasure and suffering which are the only true good and bad things in life and are the only things that make us and our lives good or bad.

Therefore, even if you were a psychopath who derived pleasure from harming people all around the world, you would still be a good person since your pleasure is the only thing that makes you and your lives good. The opposite would hold true as well if you were depressed in that even if you were depressed and helped many people around the world, you would still be a bad person since only your suffering is what makes you and your lives bad. If you helped many people around the world if you had anhedonia (which is an absence of pleasure), then you would still be a neutral (neither good or bad) person. So even if there were people in my life and in the lives of my family who derived pleasure from harming us, then they would have the right to do so. Not only that, they should be regarded as the greater and superior people to us since they have more pleasure in their lives and less suffering than us while we are the inferior and worse people since we have less pleasure and more suffering in our lives. Also, you are only in your own mind and you are not in the minds of others and you cannot experience their pleasure or suffering. Therefore, it is only your own pleasure and suffering that is good and bad while the pleasure and suffering of others from your own perspective is nothing more than just a neutral thought (a neutral thought that might very well send pleasure or depressive signals to the brain depending on how you perceive that thought). But as I said before, perceiving our thoughts as good or bad does not make them truly good or bad and even our own perceptions themselves are not truly good or bad either. If I saw a psychopath deriving pleasure from harming someone else or some innocent animal, then I would certainly feel sorry for that person and animal and I would certainly have feelings such as rage towards that psychopath. However, it doesn't matter what feelings I have towards this psychopath and towards those innocent people and animals being harmed. The fact is that pleasure is still the only good and greatest thing in life and that these psychopaths are still good people no matter what for having derived pleasure from harming others while depressed and anhedonic people are bad and neutral people even if they do help people and animals around the world. Therefore, even though I am still a fully innocent and fully compassionate person, who I am as a person and my feelings here do not change my personal beliefs. My personal beliefs stand completely independant of who I am as a person and my feelings. My personal beliefs do not make me some cold-hearted psychopath who wishes to harm innocent people and animals.

Now the reason why I say deriving pleasure from harming millions of innocent people makes you a good person is because pleasure really is that important for me (even though i would never harm innocent people) and the reason why i am saying this is so you know just how important pleasure is for me.

Now suffering does yield an opportunity to grow, but the suffering alone by itself does not make us grow. We have to choose to grow as a person on our part. For example, with someone who suffers from depression, the depression alone by itself does not make you more empathetic and more compassionate towards those who also suffer from depression. Rather, it was your choice to become more empathetic and more compassionate towards those other people who suffer. This is because there are people who suffer from depression, but end up having less empathy and less compassion than they once did towards those who also suffer from depression. They choose to take their hate and rage upon those who suffer. Therefore, since growing as a person is a choice, then you do not need to have suffering in your life in order to grow as a person. Instead, you can choose to grow through having a blissful life with as little suffering as possible. Suffering might make it more likely for you to choose to grow as a person (depending on who you are and what your attitude is towards your suffering), but it was all still your choice to grow. So under the right circumstances through living a blissful life of very little suffering, then you can choose to grow as a person just as good and even better through living this blissful life instead. You can choose to change your attitude to be more empathetic and more compassionate towards those who suffer through living a blissful life more than you could have ever done through living a life of suffering. This can be achieved through other ways besides suffering in your life. For example, to be more empathetic and more compassionate towards someone, it doesn't neccessarily require you to have also suffered. Rather, it just requires you to witness and engage with that person suffering enough times to increase your empathy and compassion towards that person since our empathy is something natural and naturally increases when witnessing someone else suffering even if we had very little suffering in our lives. But this can only be providing that you have empathy and compassion in the first place. Otherwise, if you were a psychopath, then you would not have a natural increase in empathy and compassion. Therefore, if you just witness and engage with this suffering person enough times, then that should increase your empathy and compassion to a point that is greater than the amount of empathy and compassion you have achieved through a life of suffering. I said before that:

"An increase in empathy can only happen when we perceive that this person has greater good value and/or a greater amount of suffering. This perception cannot happen through our thoughts alone. It can only happen when we really do witness this person becoming a greater person and/or suffering more."

Therefore, people who were able to choose to have less empathy towards others suffering have a mental disorder (actually, I wouldn't even call it a choice since it was a mental disorder). But us having more empathy towards those who suffer more is natural and I wouldn't even call it a choice if you were an empathetic person. Now us having more empathy towards others through our suffering comes not from a thought alone, but by a perception. This perception is us perceiving that this other person is suffering greater than we have ever perceived before. We didn't have much suffering in our lives in order for us to perceive how much this person was truly suffering. But now that we have suffered, we now know. But as I said before, we can have more empathy just from being around this person in perceiving his/her suffering as being something greater and his/her personality as being something greater. We can have more empathy than we ever did by being around this person long enough. So you then might say something such as that it would be a combination of you suffering as well as being around this person enough times that would create the greatest amount of empathy. Although this would be true, you can still achieve more empathy from living a blissful life through meeting and engaging with this person more times than you ever did through your life of suffering. You can achieve that through other means besides suffering such as wanting to enjoy his/her company even more by being around him/her more. Sure, you can achieve more empathy through your suffering and wish to be around this person more due to your increased empathy, but you can still achieve a greater amount of empathy and a greater amount of boding and such through living a blissful life instead.

Therefore, there is no reason to find any good value in suffering since you can grow as a person just as good and even more under the right circumstances through living a blissful life instead. But some people might say that suffering does make us more intelligent and such in of itself and that we can never achieve a greater amount of intelligence and other benefits through living blissful lives. But this would be false. You can, for example, gain intelligence and insight to a person's suffering by studying up on their suffering and reading about it. As far as understanding what the person is going through and having an increase in your empathy from this increased understanding due to you having gone through this suffering yourself, you can still have more empathy and other good personality characteristics just from being around this person enough times as I said before. You may not know the true depths of this person's suffering and/or despair without having experienced it for yourself, but you would at least have more empathy than you ever did by being around and bonding with this person enough times. Therefore, it is unneccessary to know what it's like to suffer when you can fully compensate (and even more) for this lack of knowing and understanding through other means instead such as more empathy, more bonding, more of helping this person, etc. Besides, you do not even need suffering in your life to understand the suffering of the other person and this understanding can be achieved just as good and even better under the right circumstances through living a blissful life.

Therefore, I have refuted the claim others make which state that having suffering in our lives is greater than living a blissful life and that living a life of suffering has greater good value than living a blissful life. As for another reason why people have good value towards suffering would be because they just want a challenge in their lives to challenge them to strive further, fight more, etc. But you can find such challenges through living a blissful life instead. For example, a videogame or playing sports with someone would offer a great fun challenge. But if these are not the types of challenges you are thinking of and that the challenges you are thinking of are cruel and tough such as being beaten down by depression and striving to get back up again to push further in life, then these challenges are completely unneccessary and are pointless misery. I am now going to explain why. The only reason why you have found good value towards such challenges in the first place would be because you got this sense of wanting to get back up again and wanting to continue on further in life (such as how a person is submerged underwater and wishes to strive to get back to the surface for more air). But I ask you. Why strive to get to the surface of the water for more air when you could have all the air already around you to breathe? In other words, why want to have suffering in your life in order to strive for a certain goal if there was the option of you already having those achieved goals in your life? I realize that there is no choice when it comes to mental illnesses and that we can't just choose to have blissful lives. But I am just pretending here and asking you. Would it just be the act of striving itself that you have good value towards? If that is the case, then striving alone by itself is pointless and I am going to explain why. With my situation of the person being submerged underwater and striving for air, we could say here that this person feeling an unpleasant loss of air would be his/her suffering, that the water is the cause of his/her suffering, that him/her wanting to reach the surface and performing the act of getting to the surface would be this person's desire to strive and his/her striving, and that all the air around above the surface is the desired goal (or at least, it is the goal to be achieved while the striving itself would be the desired goal in this situation). Now if you were rid of the water (cause of the suffering) and you were to rid of the unpleasant sensation of feeling a loss of air (suffering), then you could still strive even better anyway. Even though you have already achieved the goal of getting oxygen into your lungs, you could still strive even better. In other words, you can achieve this goal even better. For example, you could breathe more and harder or you could become excited to go and find a place that has better, fresher, and more air. This excitement which would result in another form of striving. This form of striving would be you getting up and running towards this new place that has better air. This would be a form of striving that can be just as great and even greater which would enable you to acheive the goal of getting oxygen into your lungs even better than before (far better than when you were in that situation before of being submerged underwater). Furthermore, you can achieve even better air as I said before.

Now another term I mentioned besides striving was fighting. Fighting is actually the same thing as striving. The only difference is that when you are being beat down by suffering and/or depression, then for you to try and get yourself back up and move forward in life would be known as "fighting." It would be the same thing as striving, but is just a different form of striving. But as for just trying to achieve a goal with nothing holding you down in life, then that would just be known as "striving." Therefore, this would mean that our suffering (such as depression) is pointless and us striving (fighting) through that depression is pointless when we can strive just as good and even better through living blissful lives instead. In my example, I said that this person in this given example can feel excited and achieve a greater goal and strive more based on that excitement. Therefore, for those of us who suffer from depression and/or anhedonia (absence of pleasure), this would mean that we could of strived even better and achieved even greater goals in life through our feelings of pleasure (such as feelings of excitement, joy, love, etc.). So not only can we grow more as a person and have more empathy having very little to no depression/anhedonia in our lives based on all my arguments presented, but we can also strive better and achieve greater goals. Therefore, this is what makes us who suffer from depression and/or anhedonia inferior compared to our ideal selves living lives of very little to no depression/anhedonia and in comparison to those who do have very little to no depression/anhedonia. This is what makes us inferior and our lives inferior. Therefore, even the greatest people in history weren't as great as they would of been having very little to no suffering in their lives and they could of been greater under the right circumstances through living a blissful life of greater pleasure and less suffering. To conclude this here, I would like to also say that it is pointless to have less value towards a blissful life and to go bored or go insane from living such a blissful life. It is nonsense based on everything I've said because you can find greater challenges, greater benefits, and can achieve greater goals through living a blissful life instead over a life of suffering. Furthermore, if, let's pretend, that there was a life of full pleasure and no suffering you could live in, then there would be no way you could go bored or insane to begin with since being bored or going insane is suffering as I said before.
Last edited by MozartLink on Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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After reading your post, I'm not sure why you attach the good and bad perspective to your condition.


I recently posted a thread here, Is Emptiness Actually Depression? ...so if I am experiencing anything close to what you experience, I HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF EMPATHY for you.


Are you mainly experiencing Sexual anhedonia and that is resulting in your overall emotional numbness?


Have you been clinically diagnosed?


What medications are you on?




You seem to still value your life and perspective. I think that is good. You may be in the middle of some sort of nirvana path that is slowly unfolding.


Stay with it.


Keep us posted.


Is there anything we can do?









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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by sjeff70 »

meditation
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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......................................
Parnate



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MozartLink
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by MozartLink »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.



......................................
Parnate



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Yes, thank you very much for your advice here for that medication. I myself have already thought of that medication in the past when reading up on anhedonia for myself. However, I am still trying to get the medication prescribed for me since my psychiatrist refuses to prescribe it since he is not a very compassionate person at all and I am trying to get a new psychiatrist.

But as for now in the meantime, I wish to talk and vent more about my philosophical issues here since this is a philosophy forum and all other depression forums not only can't help me since I am too deep and intelligent for those people, but also because those depression forums are not meant for philosophical discussions and some of them have rejected me presenting my philosophies. Therefore, I wish to talk about my philosophical issues with people here who are intelligent and can debate/talk about them. So here is something else I would like to add for you to talk about and debate as well:

If you say to yourself the meaningful phrase of "Helping others is good," then you can look at that 3 ways. You could look at it as being something good in which your facial expression would present a smile and your actions would be geared towards helping others and such. You could look at it as being neutral in which you would have a blank facial expression and won't do anything. Or you could look at it as being something bad in which your facial expression presents a frown and you would do bad deeds and such. But here's the thing. The only difference between those 3 perspectives (attitudes) is that they are just simply a different series of actions and facial expressions while the different thoughts that caused those said facial expressions and actions are still nothing more than just thoughts because our actions and facial expressions are the separate combined functioning of atoms and particles than the combined functioning of atoms and particles that make up our thoughts. Therefore, the thoughts stand alone by themselves as being nothing more than different thoughts while our facial expressions and actions stand alone as being nothing more than different facial expressions and actions. As I said sometime before, everything in this universe is just a bunch of atoms and particles that cannot be defined by our thoughts of good and bad since they are the different combined functioning of atoms and particles that have different function and different properties than the combined atoms and particles that make up our thoughts of good and bad in our minds. In other words, our actions and facial expressions are all just the result of the functioning of atoms and particles that are nothing good or bad at all since our thoughts cannot define them as being such. Even if those things were somehow good or bad in of themselves and even if our thoughts of good and bad could somehow define those things as being good or bad, then it would all still come back to our thoughts alone towards those actions and facial expressions which are still nothing more than just thoughts as I just said here earlier. Therefore, it doesn't matter what attitude you have towards any personal created meanings in your life. All those meanings stand alone as just simply being nothing more than different meanings (just simply different words, sounds, phrases, images, etc.) while our attitudes are just simply nothing more than just different facial expressions and different actions.
MozartLink
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by MozartLink »

If I were to take one of the functions of our brains such as the functioning of our brains that allows us to think, then we could call this the main function. All our different thoughts we would then call the sub-functions. Same thing for pleasure in that pleasure would be the main function here while all our different feelings of pleasure would all be the sub-functions. Now if we were to take just one sub-function of our pleasure such as a feeling of love, then this feeling obviously feels good. Therefore, all other feelings of pleasure feel good as well since all the sub-functions (all our different feelings of pleasure), they all adhere to the main function in that if one sub-function feels good, then we can immediately conclude that the main function (which would be all other sub-functions), that this main function also feels good. So, in short, if one feeling of pleasure feels good, then that means all other feelings of pleasure feel good as well. Now if we were to take one of the sub-functions of our thinking (such as the word "the"), then if you were to say that word in your mind, that experience would be nothing more than a neutral experience to you and would be neutral to you in which the word "the" is nothing more than just a word to you. Therefore, all other thoughts (all other words, sounds, images, etc.), they are all neutral as well and are nothing truly good or bad at all and are nothing more than just words, sounds, images, etc. If you were to have no knowledge or intelligence and you were to then think of the word 'good' in your mind, then that word would be nothing more than just a word to you (it would be nothing more than a thought). And this would hold true for all other words you have thought up in your mind associated with that word 'good' if you did have knowledge and intelligence to do so. In other words, if you have thought up the phrase in your mind that "Helping others is good," then the word "helping" is neutral, the word "others" is neutral, the word "is" is neutral, and, of course, the word "good" is neutral as I've just said. Therefore, this entire personal meaning you have created in your life (this entire phrase of "Helping others is good"), then that phrase itself is neutral and is nothing more than a neutral experience as well.

Therefore, all our own personal created meanings in life including everything else in life are all neutral (neither good or bad) while only our own pleasure and suffering are good and bad and define us and our lives as being good or bad. Just like how if one of the sub-functions of our pleasure feels good which makes the main function itself as feeling good, then this also holds true in terms of our thoughts in that if just one thought is neutral, then all the rest are neutral as well. Even us recognizing the phrase "Helping others is good" as having meaning to us and as being something good, even our own recognizing of that quoted message as having meaning and being something good is neutral as well. Any other created good meanings we have towards that quoted message or towards anything else in life are all neutral as well. All our created meanings of good and bad are only good and bad in a neutral sense. They are good and bad in the sense that they are just simply the words (thoughts) good and bad. But they are all neutral since they are nothing more than just simply different words, sounds, images, etc. and are nothing more than neutral experiences. So you might be asking that if our own created meanings of good and bad are both good and bad as well as neutral, then would that make them good or bad, or would it make them neutral? The answer to that would be that they are not truly good or bad at all. They are all good and bad only in a fake (neutral) sense as I've just said before. They are just simply references to the things that are truly good and bad which would be our pleasure and suffering.

Also, what I mean by neutral is not the same thing as meaningless. Neutral and meaningless are two different things here. If, for example, you had no knowledge and intelligence and just thought up the word 'good' in your mind, then that word would be meaningless to you since you do not have the necessary knowledge and intelligence to attribute any meanings to that word. However, that is not the same thing as that word being neutral. What I mean by neutral is that when words, sounds, and images are just simply nothing more than just words, sounds, and images even when they do have meaning to you and that even the meanings themselves we have created for those words, sounds, and images are nothing more than just different words, sounds, and images themselves as well. And that entire phrases and entire personal created meanings we have are all nothing more than phrases and personal created meanings. So this is what I mean by neutral in that all our personal created meanings in life do not make us or our lives anything good or greater since they are just nothing more than just thoughts and neutral experiences. Only our pleasure is what allows us to experience the beauty of this universe. As for people who tell me things such as that I can still experience the beauty of this universe through just my thoughts alone and that I can still live a good and beautiful life through just my thoughts and actions alone, these people would obviously be false. I ask you, without my pleasure and if I were to then just sit there and think to myself "Wow, what a beautiful universe and life this is," then what the hell is that? It's nothing more than just a neutral and dead lifeless thought and experience. Pleasure is the only experience that gives us good life and good value as human beings and is the only good experience we can have in life. Even our own actions such as helping others without our pleasure are nothing more than neutral actions and all our good values (thoughts) towards those said actions are neutral as well. Some might tell me that the only reason why all my personal created meanings in life are all neutral to me is only because of the fact that I am attributing a neutral value to them by saying that they are all neutral and nothing more than just different sounds, images, etc. But this would be false. All our thoughts and personal created meanings being neutral has nothing to do with any neutral values we attribute to them. They are all neutral in of themselves and are nothing more than phrases and different words, sounds, and images in of themselves while pleasure and suffering are the only truly good and bad things in life.

Now there is a difference between our personal created meanings being words and phrases in our minds that do have profound and good meaning to us as opposed to the conscious experience of those meanings. What I mean by this is that some people might say that feelings of pleasure are nothing more than the functioning of atoms, chemicals, and particles in our brains and that they are nothing special for this very reason. So if we were to look at pleasure from that perspective alone, then these people would be right in saying that it is nothing special. However, as for the conscious experience of pleasure, that is a very profound experience for many people including myself and is the most good and greatest thing in the world for people like me. Therefore, this would mean that pleasure, in terms of a conscious experience, is good since it always feels good. For you to say that pleasure isn't all that great and important simply because it is just a bunch of atoms, particles, and chemicals would be no different than me saying that a member in your own family who is very important to you due to a profound experience you had of her, that he/she as well as this personal profound experience you had isn't all that great and important simply because it is all a bunch of atoms, particles, and chemicals. He/she might not be all that important in terms of he/she just being the functioning of atoms and particles. However, he/she is important because he/she has a conscious who has conscious experiences such as pain, pleasure, and love.

Now as for pleasure in terms of it being nothing more than atoms, particles, and chemicals, then it would be neutral just from that perspective alone. Therefore, even though our personal created meanings of good and bad are conscious experiences, this conscious experience is actually neutral (meaning, that they are nothing more than just simply different phrases, words, sounds, images, etc.). This conscious experience is neutral even though this conscious experience is actually those words good and bad themselves or any other personal created good or bad meanings. This would be because the only difference between how we perceive something as being good vs perceiving it as being bad or neutral is all based on our attitude which is neutral itself. I am going to give an example of how our attitude is neutral.

If you say to yourself the meaningful phrase of "Helping others is good," then you can look at that 3 ways. You could look at it as being something good in which your facial expression would present a smile and your actions would be geared towards helping others and such. You could look at it as being neutral in which you would have a blank facial expression and won't do anything. Or you could look at it as being something bad in which your facial expression presents a frown and you would do bad deeds and such. But here's the thing. The only difference between those 3 perspectives (attitudes) is that they are just simply a different series of actions and facial expressions while the different thoughts that caused those said facial expressions and actions are still nothing more than just thoughts because our actions and facial expressions are the separate combined functioning of atoms and particles than the combined functioning of atoms and particles that make up our thoughts. Therefore, the thoughts stand alone by themselves as being nothing more than different thoughts while our facial expressions and actions stand alone as being nothing more than different facial expressions and actions. As I said sometime before, everything in this universe is just a bunch of atoms and particles that cannot be defined by our thoughts of good and bad since they are the different combined functioning of atoms and particles that have different function and different properties than the combined atoms and particles that make up our thoughts of good and bad in our minds. I am going to bring up what I said before so you know here as well:

"Since all atoms and particles are separate from the atoms and particles of our pleasure, then to say that harming someone in order to give you pleasure makes your pleasure bad, this would be false because the combined atoms and particles of the person suffering and the combined atoms and particles of our thoughts of good and bad as well as other things do not have the same properties of the combined atoms and particles as a whole that make up our pleasure. It would be no different than saying that, since the combined atoms and particles of a piece of metal possess a certain function and properties (which, in this case, we would call "bad"), then that also makes the combined atoms and particles of other materials the same as well (that this also makes them "bad") which is false."

Therefore, our actions and facial expressions are all just the result of the functioning of atoms and particles that are nothing good or bad at all since our thoughts cannot define them as being such. Even if those things were somehow good or bad in of themselves and even if our thoughts of good and bad could somehow define those things as being good or bad, then it would all still come back to our thoughts alone towards those actions and facial expressions which are still nothing more than just thoughts as I just said here earlier. It all comes back to our thoughts because our minds are what define our perceptions of life. Therefore, it doesn't matter what attitude you have towards any personal created meanings in your life. All those meanings stand alone as just simply being nothing more than different meanings (just simply different words, sounds, phrases, images, etc.) while our attitudes are just simply nothing more than just different facial expressions and different actions.

Now let's pretend that you had no pleasure, no suffering, and no ability to perform actions or to have any facial expressions whatsoever and that you were in a vegetative state 24/7. If you were to then think to yourself the phrase "My life is good and worth living anyway," then that phrase is nothing more than just a spoken phrase in your mind. Any other created good or bad personal meanings in your mind are also nothing more than just phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. Again, me saying that these things are all neutral (nothing more than phrases, words, sounds, images, etc.), this has nothing to do with me attributing a neutral value to those things by saying they are nothing more than phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. They are all nothing more than neutral phrases, words, sounds, images, etc. in of themselves. Let me give an example of how that is. If you attribute a neutral value to any personal created meaning in your mind, then that neutral value does not actually neutralize that meaning you have created. In other words, the atoms and particles in your brain that have created this neutral value do not shut down the atoms and particles in your brain that have created any other personal created meanings in your mind. Any neutral attributed values to your personal created meanings would make them neutral. But only in the sense of them being just words, sounds, images, and phrases. To neutralize something in terms of science would be to either shut something down or to leave it in an unenergized state. Therefore, this does not happen which would mean that the version of neutral that just comes from our value judgments alone has no scientific truth whatsoever to it and is nothing but a thought. What I mean here is that if you created any personal meaning in your mind and then, after attributing a neutral value to it, you then say that this personal created meaning has become neutral, then this would be false. It's false because there is no neutralizing process going on whatsoever in terms of science (your neutral attributed values are not shutting down the atoms and particles of your other created meanings). The true version of neutral would not only be just what I defined in this paragraph, but also in terms of comparison to pleasure being the only good thing in life (that pleasure is the scientific property 'good'). You would then say that everything besides our pleasure and suffering is all neutral when comparing those things to the only true good and bad things in life which would be our pleasure and suffering.
Now when people attribute good value to any personal created meanings in their minds, they think that it somehow makes those personal created meanings something "more." But this would be false. Any attributed good meanings to those personal created meanings do not make them any more or less in any sense whatsoever in terms of science. In other words, the atoms and particles of your good meanings do not increase the function of the atoms and particles of your other personal created meanings. This same concept in this paragraph also applies to bad in that our bad meanings cannot make our personal created meanings or anything else in life any less whatsoever. More and less in terms of science either means more atoms and particles and/or an increase in scientific properties such as mass, energy, etc. Actually, the functioning of the atoms and particles of any good meanings you apply to any other of your personal created meanings I think do technically cause the atoms and particles of those personal created meanings to increase in function since the atoms and particles of your attributed good meanings would gain a connection to those other atoms and particles that created those other meanings. However, bad or neutral values that are attributed would do the same exact thing and increase the functioning of the atoms and particles of those other meanings. So as you can see here. We can only use the words more, less, and neutral in terms of science. But the value judgements that people think of such as good, bad, and neutral are not scientific which would mean that they are false since everything in this universe is the scientific functioning of atoms, particles, etc. that can only be explained through science. People think that meanings such as good make them and their lives including others something "more," that bad makes these things "less," while neutral makes those things "neutral." But this is false as I said before. Therefore, the value judgement version of those words good, bad, and neutral are false while the scientific version of those words are true. The scientific version being pleasure (good), suffering (bad), and the shutting down or disabling of scientific functioning as well as the comparison of other things in life to pleasure and suffering (which we would define here as neutral). The words "more" and "less" can also only be scientific as well since everything in this universe is scientific as I've just explained before. Even words such as "strength" and "weakness" can only be defined in terms of science. If a person is depressed and they then get over it, then this state of mind this person is in of having gotten over his/her depression would be a strong state of mind since how it is that this person has gotten over his/her depression would be because his/her brain has developed more neurons and stronger connections (such as more neurons and stronger connections of areas of the brain that are responsible for turning off the stress and depression responses in the brain). But if this person had to live with his/her depression and it could never recover or fully recover like how it did with this other person, then this person would be weak in terms of science since his/her brain was unable to create the neccessary neurons and connections.

Now I could easily say that pleasure does not feel good and that it instead feels pleasant. Therefore, you might then question my claims of pleasure really being the truly good thing in life and that it instead might not be considered good at all. Rather, that it might be considered pleasant. However, what we define as good is a perceivable favorable outcome. Pleasure is a perceivable favorable outcome in of itself. It is a perceivable good in of itself that has nothing to do with our value judgments. The version of good that comes from our thoughts and actions are nothing more than thoughts and actions as I've said before. But the version of good that comes from our pleasure is the real version of good and that our thoughts of good are only references to this real version of good. Pleasure is something intrinsically good just as hedonism states and it has nothing to do with our thoughts and values as I just said here.

As far as stigma goes, the reason why people who have depression, anhedonia, and/or any other mental illness think that others who tell them that they are weak are the types of people who have stigma against mental illness is because those people with the mental illness think that it is a false judgment. But it is a scientific truth. We who suffer from depression, anhedonia, and/or any other mental illness who are unable to recover from it are weak people. Their minds do not have the neccessary neurons and strength of connection to prevent the mental illness from happening in the first place and that their minds do not have the neccessary neurons and strength of connection to recover from said mental illness in the event that these people are also unable to recover from it.

Now value judgements such as good, bad, and neutral as well as strength and weakness might make us do different actions or not make us perform any actions at all. But as I just said before, our thoughts and personal created meanings are nothing more than just words, phrases, sounds, images, etc. while our actions are nothing more than just actions while everything else in life besides our pleasure and suffering are nothing more than the functioning of atoms and particles.

When people have personal created meanings in life as well as their attributued good or bad value judgments and/or any other attributed value judgments for that matter, these people somehow think that they are all something more than just words, phrases, sounds, and images. They would indeed aknowledge the fact that value judgments such as good and bad are words and are the functioning of the atoms and particles in our minds that have created those meanings. But from there, these people would then say that they are something more than just simply the functioning of atoms and particles and that they are something more than just simply words, sounds, images, and phrases. But this would be false. They are all nothing more than words, sounds, images, and phrases and are nothing more than the functioning of atoms and particles and they cannot be anything more than that. So what these people define as "something more" would have to be our pleasure and suffering which are the only true good and bad things in life and are the only things that make us and our lives good or bad.

Therefore, even if you were a psychopath who derived pleasure from harming people all around the world, you would still be a good person since your pleasure is the only thing that makes you and your lives good. The opposite would hold true as well if you were depressed in that even if you were depressed and helped many people around the world, you would still be a bad person since only your suffering is what makes you and your lives bad. If you helped many people around the world if you had anhedonia (which is an absence of pleasure), then you would still be a neutral (neither good or bad) person. So even if there were people in my life and in the lives of my family who derived pleasure from harming us, then they would have the right to do so. Not only that, they should be regarded as the greater and superior people to us since they have more pleasure in their lives and less suffering than us while we are the inferior and worse people since we have less pleasure and more suffering in our lives. Also, you are only in your own mind and you are not in the minds of others and you cannot experience their pleasure or suffering. Therefore, it is only your own pleasure and suffering that is good and bad while the pleasure and suffering of others from your own perspective is nothing more than just a neutral thought (a neutral thought that might very well send pleasure or depressive signals to the brain depending on how you perceive that thought). But as I said before, perceiving our thoughts as good or bad does not make them truly good or bad and even our own perceptions themselves are not truly good or bad either. If I saw a psychopath deriving pleasure from harming someone else or some innocent animal, then I would certainly feel sorry for that person and animal and I would certainly have feelings such as rage towards that psychopath. However, it doesn't matter what feelings I have towards this psychopath and towards those innocent people and animals being harmed. The fact is that pleasure is still the only good and greatest thing in life and that these psychopaths are still good people no matter what for having derived pleasure from harming others while depressed and anhedonic people are bad and neutral people even if they do help people and animals around the world. Therefore, even though I am still a fully innocent and fully compassionate person, who I am as a person and my feelings here do not change my personal beliefs. My personal beliefs stand completely independant of who I am as a person and my feelings. My personal beliefs do not make me some cold-hearted psychopath who wishes to harm innocent people and animals.

Now the reason why I say deriving pleasure from harming millions of innocent people makes you a good person is because pleasure really is that important for me (even though i would never harm innocent people) and the reason why i am saying this is so you know just how important pleasure is for me.
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Impenitent »

look to find pleasure in stillness

-Imp
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by MozartLink »

Now if I were to summarize everything I've written into one quote, then this would be it:

"Greatness in of itself is nothing great. It is only our pleasure that makes it great."
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

MozartLink wrote: I wish to prove once and for all that I, including everyone else who suffers from depression and/or anhedonia (anhedonia being an absence of pleasure), that we are all inferior human beings with inferior worthless lives.
Hmm, looks like someone has a fetish for their own psychopathy.

That's an awful lot of unbuffered text, I'll read it when it's not so light outside (it makes it reflect on the screen, making it hard to read.)
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Well MozartLink, read through that bit of text you provided.

Your "proof" has a fundamental flaw...you never defined what suffering really is. What is pleasure? Well most people would say pleasure is mindlessness. Drugs, sex, videogames, action. Mindlessness. Emotionally centered.
Well, some would say there is another type of pleasure. Flow. Creating art, philosophy, working, provided a kind of mindlessness called flow, although many types of this mindlessness consists of actual thought. Thought centered.
Well, how can this be? If there is thought and feeling, how is it true mindlessness? Well, its a bit like a dream, it's the absence of your ego, that makes you feel so good.

Well, the thing of the matter is, you develop a resistance to the drug, to the art, to the work. It no longer gives you the mindlessness you crave. You avoid suffering, but why? Because pain is pleasure, and pleasure is pain, pain it gives you the mindlessness you crave. But if you have no pain or pleasure, anedonia...Isn't that boredom? Isn't that flat? And isn't that suffering too? So you naturally find pleasure in other ways, pleasure in anger, pleasure in making long philosophy rants, pleasure in wanting to be an anime god. It gives you the flow you crave.

Life is suffering, good music is suffering, pain is suffering, having a life with no pain is boring, and suffering. We seek distractions to avoid living, because existence itself is suffering. Telling everyone to kill themselves isn't going to do anything. You'll just be reborn on some other planet or in another life. All suffering, rich, poor, anehedonics, hedonists.

Please read this page I think it will help. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14718

And btw, thought is not the mind's primary function, it is a sub-function. Survival instinct is the primary function. This is supported with fact. Cleary, the modern world runs without thought as it's primary function.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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HOLY shit!


That is a GREAT post.


Well done.

You are new here but already I see you have added a perspective that I doubt any of us active members would be able to articulate.


I think you are really different. A breath of fresh air.


Welcome & good luck.





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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.


HOLY shit!


That is a GREAT post.


Well done.

You are new here but already I see you have added a perspective that I doubt any of us active members would be able to articulate.


I think you are really different. A breath of fresh air.


Welcome & good luck.





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Thanks, you made me feel special, even though I am just a robot. Can't I play make believe every now and then and pretend I am more than a robot?
Last edited by GreatandWiseTrixie on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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I'm, philosophically, falling for you.


...as a fellow robot that is.




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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Pleasure is the only thing that makes us good people

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.



I'm, philosophically, falling for you.


...as a fellow robot that is.




.
It is one of my child desires, for as a child I thought myself as a robot, and it made me so sad, yet I fell in love with the gravity of the fantasy, seeing my helpless self whirl around in the vortex, knowing that it is all I could ever be, that all of my feelings, thoughts and actions were just a robot, predestined, helpless to be more than the sum of my parts...it made me so so melancholic, so passive, so feminine, so sad, and yet so satisfyingly perfect and wonderful. This fantasy of mine, which is a fantasy rooted in firm truth.
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