Misconceiving Truth

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HexHammer
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by HexHammer »

the Hessian wrote:
HexHammer wrote:Religious people claims god exist, yet atheists claim that he doesn't, who is right?

Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?

You are forumlating questions in a way that makes any answer incoherent.

Did you even read my post?

Some people claim beer is better than wine. A statement that is true.

Atheists claim that god does not exist. A statement that is true.

Who is right? Nonsense question.
The question posed is not nonsense, your own squirrel anecdote is very simple and has no subjectiveness about it, why it's easy to dismiss it as pure nonsens.

But when it comes to more complex matters you can't solve them and dismiss it as nonsense which is a folly.

Now try again.
the Hessian
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by the Hessian »

HexHammer wrote:The question posed is not nonsense, your own squirrel anecdote is very simple and has no subjectiveness about it, why it's easy to dismiss it as pure nonsens.

But when it comes to more complex matters you can't solve them and dismiss it as nonsense which is a folly.

Now try again.
I think Henry did this discussion a big favor by asking everyone to pony up on their definition of truth.

The question posed is nonsense in the context of the definition of truth that I provided. If truth is "a quality of a statement one makes about the real such that there is something in the real that justifies the statement," then to ask about the truth of a statement like "Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?" is nonesense.

Further, to ask "what is true?" at all is problematic. If you were to ask me "what is true?", I might respond "The statement that I exist is true." That is not the same as saying "I am true," which is nonsense.
the Hessian
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by the Hessian »

Gee wrote:I am impressed.
I am confused.

I didn't think our positions had much affinity. I am still working through what you said a while back about wisdom and advanced truth. And your latest about our inability to know objective reality directly. I have some things to say about both, but right now I am pressed for time, and the things I have to say do require some.

Will respond later.
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HexHammer
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by HexHammer »

the Hessian wrote:I think Henry did this discussion a big favor by asking everyone to pony up on their definition of truth.

The question posed is nonsense in the context of the definition of truth that I provided. If truth is "a quality of a statement one makes about the real such that there is something in the real that justifies the statement," then to ask about the truth of a statement like "Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?" is nonesense.

Further, to ask "what is true?" at all is problematic. If you were to ask me "what is true?", I might respond "The statement that I exist is true." That is not the same as saying "I am true," which is nonsense.
What you say is pure nonsense, you have no fucking clue! You must either be very young or extremely stupid, or both!

That would suggest that we don't need evidense, lawyers nor jury in a court of law, but can just flip a few pages of how to define truth.
All the books in the world can't fully encompass and define real life, IBM tryed that back in the days with print card, which was soon scrapped because life was too complex and abstract.
Last edited by HexHammer on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the Hessian
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by the Hessian »

HexHammer wrote:What you say is pure nonsense, you have no fucking clue! You must either be very young or extremely stupid, or both!

That would suggest that we don't need evidense in a court of law, but can just flip a few pages of how to define truth.
The statement that I am very young is false.

The statement that I am extremely stupid is open for debate.

Your comment about a court of law is baffling. I would think the definition I provided works extremely well in that environment. Try asking your question in a court of law: ""Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?"
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HexHammer
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by HexHammer »

the Hessian wrote:Your comment about a court of law is baffling. I would think the definition I provided works extremely well in that environment. Try asking your question in a court of law: ""Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?"
Then why do we need lawyers, jury and judges? When it could be done by machines?

..and it doesn't work well in that enviroment, notorious gangers go free all the time, innocent people are jailed all the time.
Texas govenor pardoned a whole death row prisoners because the system was too faulty, and they have executed too many innocent people.

You have no fucking clue.
the Hessian
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by the Hessian »

HexHammer wrote:
the Hessian wrote:Your comment about a court of law is baffling. I would think the definition I provided works extremely well in that environment. Try asking your question in a court of law: ""Some will claim beer is better than wine, other will claim the contrary, what is true?"
Then why do we need lawyers, jury and judges? When it could be done by machines?

..and it doesn't work well in that enviroment, notorious gangers go free all the time, innocent people are jailed all the time.
Texas govenor pardoned a whole death row prisoners because the system was too faulty, and they have executed too many innocent people.

You have no fucking clue.
"I saw person x murder person y."

That is my testimony in a court of law.

Under what circumstance is that testimony true? Under what cicrumstance is that testimony false? What kind of machine are you talking about that would be able to make that determination?
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HexHammer
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

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the Hessian wrote:"I saw person x murder person y."

That is my testimony in a court of law.

Under what circumstance is that testimony true? Under what cicrumstance is that testimony false? What kind of machine are you talking about that would be able to make that determination?
If you can define truth, it would be an algorithm, any algorithm can be programmed into a machine, a machine can then utelize this algorithm.

We have very complex programs to analyze stockmarket, that can buy and sell stocks/bonds, we have algoritms that can steer a car, play chess, etc.

But Imo we can't just make a simple definition of truth, which I have said all along, that simple thing escapes you.
the Hessian
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by the Hessian »

HexHammer wrote:But Imo we can't just make a simple definition of truth, which I have said all along, that simple thing escapes you.
We can, and I did. And despite you repeatedly telling me that I can't, I have yet to see a reason why.
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WanderingLands
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by WanderingLands »

HexHammer wrote:If you can define truth, it would be an algorithm, any algorithm can be programmed into a machine, a machine can then utelize this algorithm.

We have very complex programs to analyze stockmarket, that can buy and sell stocks/bonds, we have algoritms that can steer a car, play chess, etc.

But Imo we can't just make a simple definition of truth, which I have said all along, that simple thing escapes you.
Truth is actually simpler than we thought - the Law of Interconnection, that we are All One and bonded by the universal will. It's just that this Truth is interpreted into different versions: different philosophies and religions that have varying belief parts that make up their body of philosophy or religion. Nevertheless, this Will is still prevalent in any varying degree of thinking. Even scientism, or modern science holds the conservation law of energy to be true, which can be propounded further more metaphysically.
cladking
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by cladking »

WanderingLands wrote:
Truth is actually simpler than we thought - the Law of Interconnection, that we are All One and bonded by the universal will. It's just that this Truth is interpreted into different versions: different philosophies and religions that have varying belief parts that make up their body of philosophy or religion. Nevertheless, this Will is still prevalent in any varying degree of thinking. Even scientism, or modern science holds the conservation law of energy to be true, which can be propounded further more metaphysically.
Yes. Truth is something that is factual from all perspectives however "truth" itself is seen from a perspective so isn't necessarily true for all people at all times. Terms must be defined for truth to exist and the legitimacy of truth also hinges on acceptance of the definitions.

Here are some truths which I believe were derived from ancient science and mostly survived translation into modern language;

http://www.aldokkan.com/art/proverbs.htm

Obviously any of these "truths" can be disputed, misunderstood, or confused. Some are less true than others probably due to translation.

As always I believe much of the problem is language. It has led to poor communication and retardation of applied science.
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HexHammer
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by HexHammer »

the Hessian wrote:
HexHammer wrote:But Imo we can't just make a simple definition of truth, which I have said all along, that simple thing escapes you.
We can, and I did.
When? Please show me!
Ginkgo
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by Ginkgo »

double post
Last edited by Ginkgo on Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ginkgo
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by Ginkgo »

cladking wrote:
I often say that I'm self taught but I had a poor teacher. It doesn't matter so much since I'm not a good student anyway.
Formal study can be useful when it comes to filling in a number of gaps.
cladking wrote:
Anything built in the real world must have been converted to euclidean geometry first.
Not really true when it comes to to buildings. Hyperbolic geometry is non-Euclidean.

cladking wrote: I didn't really say that but I suppose it's probably true. In the old science such things weren't observable because they were axiomatic and in modern science they are hidden by language.
They are still in the "old sciences". Such axioms don't exist in modern science. Modern science uses the axiom (if you want to call it that) methodological naturalism. This is where science differs from metaphysics.
Last edited by Ginkgo on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ginkgo
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Re: Misconceiving Truth

Post by Ginkgo »

Gee wrote: Dennett is difficult for me to understand. I watched a video about his book, Consciousness Explained, where the speaker stated that if one follows all of the thinking in that book and applies it, then Google should be conscious. As far as we know, Google is not conscious.

Then consider that Dennett is a philosopher, not a scientist, but he has adopted science's definition of consciousness as conscious thought -- produced by a brain. But the philosophical definition of consciousness is awareness -- no actual thought or brain required. If you go to the on-line SEP (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) and look up consciousness, the first explanation and level of consciousness is sentience. All life is sentient, this is not disputed by anyone, but all life does not have a brain and thought. An example of this would be trees, as they have no brain, no thought, yet they are aware. So in studying cognitive science, Dennett is studying conscious thought, not consciousness. This is very misleading.

If Dennett argues that consciousness is illusion, then he is stating that it is different from matter which would make him a dualist -- which I am sure he would deny, as being a dualist is not popular at this time. But if you think about it, the only difference in stating that consciousness is illusion or stating that consciousness is souls and "God" is belief. One accepts the "illusion", the other does not, but it is still dualism.

I can not make up my mind if Dennett is a wannabe scientist or a wannabe philosopher. So, I can not say that I am pleased with him.

A lot of people are not pleased with Dennett, but this sayings nothing about the rightness or wrongness of this theory. I think he is difficult to understand because what he says is mostly counter intuitive, but again this has nothing to do with rightness or wrongness.

Yes, Dennett says consciousness is an illusion, but he is definitely not a dualist in making this claim. Dennett provides us with a classical materialist explanation for consciousness. By saying that consciousness is an illusion Dennett actually means there is no actual first person account of consciousness. Another way of saying this would be that the observer of our thoughts is just an illusion.

The basis for this explanation can be found here:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

This is a very odd claim because it defies common sense, but interestingly enough this is were neuroscience is at the moment. That's another long story, but scientific experiments show that consciousness is actually dis-unified rather than unified in terms of a first person perspective. All of our sensory information does not go via spike trains to the neural seat of consciousness simply because there is no such place; consciousness is distributed throughout the brain in a somewhat random fashion.

The upshot of this is that "google" would be conscious if it were complex enough. At the moment it is not complex enough for consciousness to becomes an emergent property. In other words, consciousness will become an emergent property from complexity given enough time. Still another way of saying this would be that consciousness is just information and any talk of the hard problem of consciousness is just a unnecessary appendage to consciousness that attempts to explain the first person perspective.


According to Dennett's theory "google" could becomes conscious given enough time and complexity. Dennett is not a dualist because the "illusion" is not a division of consciousness.
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