attn: Godfree

[xenuwonder]

Godfree, you are bound in your thinking to your one dimensional concept of infinity.

This has led you to miss the whole point of modern science in the present world we live in.
There's something in science called "observation", I think you know where I'm going with this, that relates to us as an intelligent lifeform the concept of having repeateble and proven methods of describing physical phenomena within the universe.

This gives us an understanding of what is known as "THE KNOWN UNIVERSE".

This is the only thing we spend time talking about because to talk about the actual entire universe, we are only using our imaginations to define it with little regard for observable data which is something that five year old children or lefty, hippie stoner types like to get into.

We all accept the universe, of which we really can't describe as being the ENTIRE universe as that defines it as being of size that has a limit, is infinite and always has been.

WE GET THAT DUDE

How about contribute some real science to the discussion instead of this armchair fantasy land psuedo scientific commentary of how it all fits together?

What was your specialty again in science? Have you any work I can read?

Xenuwonder out.

[Godfree]

Godfree, you are bound in your thinking to your one dimensional concept of infinity.

This has led you to miss the whole point of modern science in the present world we live in.
There's something in science called "observation", I think you know where I'm going with this, that relates to us as an intelligent lifeform the concept of having repeateble and proven methods of describing physical phenomena within the universe.

This gives us an understanding of what is known as "THE KNOWN UNIVERSE".

This is the only thing we spend time talking about because to talk about the actual entire universe, we are only using our imaginations to define it with little regard for observable data which is something that five year old children or lefty, hippie stoner types like to get into.

We all accept the universe, of which we really can't describe as being the ENTIRE universe as that defines it as being of size that has a limit, is infinite and always has been.

WE GET THAT DUDE

How about contribute some real science to the discussion instead of this armchair fantasy land psuedo scientific commentary of how it all fits together?

What was your specialty again in science? Have you any work I can read?

Xenuwonder out.

"WE GET THAT DUDE" ,
who exactly is we ,,??? because I have found Kuzy gets it , , no one else yet ,,???
what do you get ,,we have many theories , the bb is just one ,
you obviously prefer theories that the mainstream can agree on ,
truth by consensus , the majority rules , which church do you go to ,try destiny , they will love ya ,
there is much of this world that we can't see , black holes , nuclei ,gravity ,
we accept these things because we can theorize and speculate by observing things around the objects in question,
we can speculate that more universe exists , to assume it doesn't ,
is the insane irrational bullshit ,,!!!

[tillingborn]

We all accept the universe, of which we really can't describe as being the ENTIRE universe as that defines it as being of size that has a limit, is infinite and always has been.

WE GET THAT DUDE

who exactly is we ,,???

Good question; I have no idea whether the universe is infinite or not, I can't see that far.

because I have found Kuzy gets it , , no one else yet ,,???

You sure about that?

So what I think it happening on this forum is that first, tillingborn is utterly confused.

...story of my life...

Secondarily, Godfree is convinced that scientists simply believe in the expansion of space for some religious reason, and who then go collect facts to support their beliefs. The brutal truth is that redshift itself is the evidence that led scientists to conclude the universe expands.

That's not a ringing endorsement of your views, Godfree.

what do you get ,,we have many theories , the bb is just one ,

Can't argue with that.

you obviously prefer theories that the mainstream can agree on ,

(I think he's talking to you, xenuwonder.)

truth by consensus ,

Of the people with the best access to the most reliable information.

the majority rules ,

Well, that's democracy for you, but I suspect that if you were to ask everyone on the planet, the majority would not endorse the Big bang.

which church do you go to ,try destiny , they will love ya ,

Now you're just being silly.

there is much of this world that we can't see , black holes , nuclei ,gravity ,
we accept these things because we can theorize and speculate by observing things around the objects in question,
we can speculate that more universe exists , to assume it doesn't ,
is the insane irrational bullshit ,,!!!

Well, yes we can speculate, but xenuwonder is right insofar as you can't make definitive statements about things you can't see (except analytic/mathematical truths; it's called empiricism). You, Godfree, are arguing that something you cannot see must exist, which is exactly what religious nutters do. Have you no sense of irony?

[Godfree]

there is much of this world that we can't see , black holes , nuclei ,gravity ,
we accept these things because we can theorize and speculate by observing things around the objects in question,
we can speculate that more universe exists , to assume it doesn't ,
is the insane irrational bullshit ,,!!!

Well, yes we can speculate, but xenuwonder is right insofar as you can't make definitive statements about things you can't see (except analytic/mathematical truths; it's called empiricism). You, Godfree, are arguing that something you cannot see must exist, which is exactly what religious nutters do. Have you no sense of irony?[/quote]

I believe you will find my statements rather than being definitive ,
put forward my view as the most probable ,,I'v never claimed it to be fact ,,!!!
the way I see it we are swimming in spin , the politicians just feed us what they want us to believe ,
so society is somewhat being deceived ,
my aims are to try and counter some of that spin , by putting up counter spin ,
we table tennis players do it all the time ,
they can load up as much spin as they like , but you just hammer it back with counter spin ,
they want to feed us this nonsense about a bbt , and an expanding finite universe ,
so I say , rubbish , infinite steady state universe ,
society tries to feed us this pile of dung called religion ,
I say rubbish , no moment of creation , no beginning ,, , I can see the irony ,
can you see that religion needs a moment of creation to have any credibility ,,???

[Godfree]

An exercise to the reader:

Step 1. Go find a video on youtube that is scientifically authoritative which says that the universe is infinite in size.

Step 2. Find a different video on youtube that is scientifically authoritative, which says that the universe was once the size of a grapefruit/orange/basketball, prior to the inflationary epoch.

Step 3. Post the links here.

Step 4. Realize this makes no sense.

Step one ,, engage your brain ,,and sort it ,, here and now ,, with me ,,
I'm capable ,,, are you ,,,???
science has many theories ,, the bb is just one of them ,,
if you can find authoritative arguments for both sides ,
doesn't , that just discredit , authoritative ,,???
and we need a more precise and all encompassing process to determine what is real ,
reality doesn't play fair or democratic ,
reality is ruthless and one eyed ,
there either is a god or there isn't , basing a society on the idea that we can't know either way ,
is not credible in this day and age ,
religion is the madness that is destroying this world ,,
the elephant in the living room , that the world keeps walking around ,,,!!!
tip toeing carefully just incase they upset , another
religious nut case , another muslim terrorist , american mass shooter ,
while we bow down to religious fundamentalism ,
we have not left the dark ages ,,!!!!!

So if you could determine what people did or didn't believe, what would you tell them? And how do you think the knowledge you impart would effect them and their descendants?

You need to understand that people without faith in a higher realm of order and justice, will ultimately be concerned only for their individual lives, and that of their children, morality would cease to have a viable function, and the only virtue would be the strength and power needed to disregard others in favour of enjoying the moment.

I'm not religious, but I do believe in some form of metaphysical order, such as is part of the Buddhist theology.

A higher realm of order and justice ,
and this only comes from religion you think ,,???
that Atheists aren't capable of such noble thoughts ,,or should I say , righteous arrogance ,
your higher form of justice , religious morality , is a ruthless dictator ,
and responsible for most of the atrocities the planet knows ,
in a letter to my PM Helen Clark I wrote ,
Religion is a net loss to our world and on that basis alone we should ,
tax religion to the max , like any other undesirable but popular activity ,,!!!