TRUTH!

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 5200
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

TRUTH!

Post by Nick_A »

The truth is unpleasant and therefore unpopular:
Humans have invented a social "reality" that denies reality itself.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. -- Herbert Agar

Truth is like the town whore. Everybody knows her, but nonetheless, it's embarrassing to meet her on the street. WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider

Have you ever wondered why this is so and what is lost as a result?
Ginkgo
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: TRUTH!

Post by Ginkgo »

Nick_A wrote:
The truth is unpleasant and therefore unpopular:
Humans have invented a social "reality" that denies reality itself.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. -- Herbert Agar

Truth is like the town whore. Everybody knows her, but nonetheless, it's embarrassing to meet her on the street. WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider

Have you ever wondered why this is so and what is lost as a result?

Truth is a massive topic. Did you have any particular aspect of truth theory in mind?
bobevenson
Posts: 7349
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: TRUTH!

Post by bobevenson »

"Whatever may be the limitations which trammel inquiry elsewhere, we believe that the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."
Inscribed on Bascom Hall, U.W.-Madison
Ginkgo
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: TRUTH!

Post by Ginkgo »

bobevenson wrote:"Whatever may be the limitations which trammel inquiry elsewhere, we believe that the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."
Inscribed on Bascom Hall, U.W.-Madison
Bob I've been to the University of Wisconsin. It's very good, but it isn't that good.
Nick_A
Posts: 5200
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: TRUTH!

Post by Nick_A »

Nick_A wrote:
The truth is unpleasant and therefore unpopular:
Humans have invented a social "reality" that denies reality itself.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. -- Herbert Agar

Truth is like the town whore. Everybody knows her, but nonetheless, it's embarrassing to meet her on the street. WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider

Have you ever wondered why this is so and what is lost as a result?
bobevenson wrote:"Whatever may be the limitations which trammel inquiry elsewhere, we believe that the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."
Inscribed on Bascom Hall, U.W.-Madison
How?

This refers to Ginkgo as well. I'm not referring to the absence of facts the university seeks to fill us with but of the limitations of our interpretations. For example I found this article that attempts to explain this

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... t-you-free

“We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are.” This quote has been attributed to both the Talmud and Anaïs Nin (although an actual citation for neither quote can be found). This quote summarizes the idea that truth, the truth that one perceives, is subjective and can be wrong.

We have long been taught that the truth will set us free, and that seeking the truth is a worthy goal. What if there is no absolute truth? What if there are just degrees of truth (or lies) that we tell ourselves? What if, as some insightful, anonymous person once purported, “People tell themselves stories, and then pour their lives into the stories they tell”?

Meaning is created in life. Neutral events are made subjective by interpreting them through the lens of perception. “Truth” is merely a product of perceptions; perceptions are colored by experience, which is then filtered through the current state of mind and altered even further. By the time the neutral event is processed in this manner, it is little more truth than fiction. Yet personal truth is accepted wholeheartedly.

In an excellent discussion on being wrong, Kathryn Schulz states, “The miracle of your mind isn’t that you can see the world as it is. It’s that you can see the world as it isn’t.” (You can watch her talk on TED here). The point of her talk is that we are often not only wrong, but completely unaware of it. She grasps the idea that reality is filtered through perceptions and biases; and that it comes out the other side distorted but believed to be truth.....................


We seem to glorify misconceptions and even calling them art at times.
"Nothing is so beautiful and wonderful, nothing is so continually fresh and surprising, so full of sweet and perpetual ecstasy, as the good. No desert is so dreary, monotonous, and boring as evil. This is the truth about authentic good and evil. With fictional good and evil it is the other way round. Fictional good is boring and flat, while fictional evil is varied and intriguing, attractive, profound, and full of charm." Simone Weil From "Morality and Literature,”an essay published in Cahiers du Sud, January 1944
As usual she says it like it is. Our imagintion is such that even though so many debate good and evil, how many know what they are? Why is this so?
bobevenson
Posts: 7349
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: TRUTH!

Post by bobevenson »

Ginkgo wrote:
bobevenson wrote:"Whatever may be the limitations which trammel inquiry elsewhere, we believe that the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."
Inscribed on Bascom Hall, U.W.-Madison
Bob I've been to the University of Wisconsin. It's very good, but it isn't that good.
I don't think any university is very good with the possible exception of the one astrophysicist Brian May was chancellor of after he left the rock band Queen. U.W.'s aphorism might be the only lesson worth remembering at that school.
User avatar
Hjarloprillar
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:36 am
Location: Sol sector.

Re: TRUTH!

Post by Hjarloprillar »

OP

well said
User avatar
Hjarloprillar
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:36 am
Location: Sol sector.

Re: TRUTH!

Post by Hjarloprillar »

what is it with Wisconsin.. the stuup flic 2012. is filled with Wisconsin.
is it US 'in' joke
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5518
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: TRUTH!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Nick_A wrote:
Nick_A wrote:
The truth is unpleasant and therefore unpopular:
Humans have invented a social "reality" that denies reality itself.

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. -- Herbert Agar

Truth is like the town whore. Everybody knows her, but nonetheless, it's embarrassing to meet her on the street. WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider

Have you ever wondered why this is so and what is lost as a result?
bobevenson wrote:"Whatever may be the limitations which trammel inquiry elsewhere, we believe that the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."
Inscribed on Bascom Hall, U.W.-Madison
How?

This refers to Ginkgo as well. I'm not referring to the absence of facts the university seeks to fill us with but of the limitations of our interpretations. For example I found this article that attempts to explain this

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... t-you-free

“We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are.” This quote has been attributed to both the Talmud and Anaïs Nin (although an actual citation for neither quote can be found). This quote summarizes the idea that truth, the truth that one perceives, is subjective and can be wrong.

We have long been taught that the truth will set us free, and that seeking the truth is a worthy goal. What if there is no absolute truth? What if there are just degrees of truth (or lies) that we tell ourselves? What if, as some insightful, anonymous person once purported, “People tell themselves stories, and then pour their lives into the stories they tell”?

Meaning is created in life. Neutral events are made subjective by interpreting them through the lens of perception. “Truth” is merely a product of perceptions; perceptions are colored by experience, which is then filtered through the current state of mind and altered even further. By the time the neutral event is processed in this manner, it is little more truth than fiction. Yet personal truth is accepted wholeheartedly.

In an excellent discussion on being wrong, Kathryn Schulz states, “The miracle of your mind isn’t that you can see the world as it is. It’s that you can see the world as it isn’t.” (You can watch her talk on TED here). The point of her talk is that we are often not only wrong, but completely unaware of it. She grasps the idea that reality is filtered through perceptions and biases; and that it comes out the other side distorted but believed to be truth.....................


We seem to glorify misconceptions and even calling them art at times.
"Nothing is so beautiful and wonderful, nothing is so continually fresh and surprising, so full of sweet and perpetual ecstasy, as the good. No desert is so dreary, monotonous, and boring as evil. This is the truth about authentic good and evil. With fictional good and evil it is the other way round. Fictional good is boring and flat, while fictional evil is varied and intriguing, attractive, profound, and full of charm." Simone Weil From "Morality and Literature,”an essay published in Cahiers du Sud, January 1944
As usual she says it like it is. Our imagintion is such that even though so many debate good and evil, how many know what they are? Why is this so?
In my opinion,

The word truth is often misused;
Many people call many things truth that aren't;
There are absolute truths, some of which are known, and some of which are unknown;
When seeking truth one must always be mindful of potential false truths;
Truth is not something trivial, that should be taken lightly;
In all cases expect to do a lot of work and research to find the truth, and when you believe you've found it, expect to do some more;
The truth of the universe, what ever it may be, is absolute;
The truth of men is where much scrutiny is required, as there is no necessary accounting for the perspective of men as they account for their version of truth;
Mans truth is bound by framework created and maintained by him, assuming it necessarily contains truth;
It is absolutely true that men are born, they shall be alive for some time that requires air, water, and food, and that eventually they shall die. And that much of what they do to deal with this truth, is where their untruth is born, fear being the primary motivator.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: TRUTH!

Post by reasonvemotion »

Anais Nin also said

“When others asked the truth of me, I was convinced it was not the truth they wanted, but an illusion they could bear to live with.”

Which is in complete contrast to "You have to be cruel to be kind".

I believe the truth is not always the most desirable course for some.

Sometimes out of kindness the truth should be withheld.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5518
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: TRUTH!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

reasonvemotion wrote:Anais Nin also said

“When others asked the truth of me, I was convinced it was not the truth they wanted, but an illusion they could bear to live with.”

Which is in complete contrast to "You have to be cruel to be kind".

I believe the truth is not always the most desirable course for some.

Sometimes out of kindness the truth should be withheld.
Yeah, well you and I shall always disagree on this one, unless we're talking about children, or childlike adults. As adults can only ever grow from the truth, no matter how painful. I'm not saying it should be conveyed in a cruel way, sensitive truths, should always be stated as a matter-of-fact, without any judgement or condescension attached.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: TRUTH!

Post by reasonvemotion »

Why are you so averse to withholding sometimes?

I agree children, but how many of us are truly adult?

Very few of us are adult, brave enough, strong enough to take it ALL on the chin, alone.

For starters. " Vanity, gets them every time" and has the habit of distorting the truth even if it is given to them

and this is done also, in some instances so they may survive. The mind does this. Hides trauma when it is too much to bear, tucks

it away in the depths never to be awakened. There must be a reason for this. I don't agree it is always wise to expose these hidden

experiences. Sometimes it can break a person, not heal. A doctor will always ask the patient if they think they are capable and

strong enough to deal with them, before he proceeds.
Last edited by reasonvemotion on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5518
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: TRUTH!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

reasonvemotion wrote:Why are you so averse to withholding sometimes?

I agree children, but how many of us are truly adult?

Very few of us are adult, brave enough, strong enough to take it ALL on the chin, alone.

For starters. " Vanity, gets them every time" and has the habit of distorting the truth even if it is given to them.
OK, I agree, as I've never really considered myself a man and only ever want to remain a child, carefree and innocent, not a care in the world, I hear you, but the truth as far as nutrition and exercise, (health) goes, can save lives, so lies be damned, and make way the truth, no matter how "seemingly" cruel.
reasonvemotion
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: TRUTH!

Post by reasonvemotion »

No, Spheres, not lie.

Withhold.

Which I accept you may view as a lie.

Sorry, I keep adding, editing, should do this before I post.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5518
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: TRUTH!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

reasonvemotion wrote:No, Spheres, not lie.

Withhold.

Which I accept you may view as a lie.

Sorry, I keep adding, editing, should do this before I post.
OK, anything that can ultimately help someone, should be told to them, regardless of the potential of emotional pain. While those things that are not really ultimately important to their well being, is up for debate.

No worries, I do editing the same way sometimes, as many do!
Post Reply