Free will and hunger

[SpheresOfBalance]

Determine it's fate, coward! Take the challenge! You can't! Because the fate of the ball in my hand, cannot be determined, it's fate is relative to my free will of disposition, of variable determination, which is where free will lies. You are wrong, my son, as to the meaning of the concept of free will. What I have outlined is what it is, nothing more, nor nothing less.

Those at the forefront, as opposed to you and I, say that, at the quantum level, particles disappear and reappear in completely 'arbitrary' relative locations, now speak to me about 'arbitrary' determinism? As to either it's freedom or it's deterministic nature. I'm waiting! Of course I expect your answer to be determined by something, (ego?) but what that something is, is freely debatable amongst the wills of scholars, as humans do not yet know of the theory of everything, if you don't believe me, go ask Stephen Hawking.

Because the fate of the weather, cannot be determined, it's fate is relative to complexity of whole universe and its global ecosystems climate, of variable determination, which is where free weather lies?
global ecosystems, with or without humans, are deterministic systems in systematical scientific theories. don't be surprised if sometime, somewhere, someplace when you least expect it, someone steps up to you and says, smile! You're going to throw the ball to Mark Question!

those at the forefront in science, use inaccurate scientific theories, and try to make more accurate thinking and new theories. they will see more and more accurate, new things and relations, if those at the forefront in science and new scientific theories gets more and more accurate. they do not have all-seeing eyes or the theory of everything.
those outside the scientific and technological world are free to fight back when global technology is marching in and overtaking every inch, or lebensraum, "space of life". and scientific world view is overtaking every inch in global thinking. please, do not shoot the messenger. just throw the ball.

artificial intelligence will overtake us all. and that was today's short term forecast. have a great evening! and next the lottery numbers and some soap operas...
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/09/12/ ... y-readers/

"freeing the mind" from logical thinking, from picturing systematically the will, can be done many ways. drugs, meditation, electric shocks, bomb belts,..

There is a big difference between inanimate objects, or I should say, objects that can't think, and the human mind. If the ball be light enough, sure the wind can blow it any where that atmospheric conditions 'determine.' they do not think nor decide, the direction of the ball is hardwired to the conditions that present. The wind does not have the free will to not blow, that it blows is determined by outside forces of more non thinking deterministic properties. But a human can throw it in any direction, or not; drop it, or not; put it in their pocket, or not. The decisions to do any of these possibilities, that which the physical world allows, rests not with determined unthinking physical universal properties, but with an entity that thinks and can choose what to do, or do nothing. That's all free will is, the faculty of a being to choose what to do, not bound by the deterministic universal properties of inanimate objects.

Unless, of course you see that these forces of the universe are the hand of a thinking god. I'm agnostic, and while I think it possible, or not, I have committed to neither belief, as it is too early to know. I think that most prefer to think that there is a more knowledgeable, more powerful being, that they can go to, as they seek clarity of thought. It would be nice, but if it be real, it has not presented itself to me, so I am forever on the fence waiting for something conclusive.

[Mark Question]

The decisions to do any of these possibilities, that which the physical world allows, rests not with determined unthinking physical universal properties, but with an entity that thinks and can choose what to do, or do nothing. That's all free will is, the faculty of a being to choose what to do, not bound by the deterministic universal properties of inanimate objects.

determined by systematical scientific world view, physical world is not allowing, it is thinking and choosing, willing and living in a form of a human. humans are part of, the same physical wold, not unnatural tourists.

if man is standing in a flat surface, he do not think earth is flat, i hope. he think surface is flat.
if man have to choose, he do not think world have to choose. he think he have to choose.
still, surface is part of the earth and man is part of the world. flat surface is not exactly flat and world have to choose, in a form of a man. better accuracy gives better forecasts.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The decisions to do any of these possibilities, that which the physical world allows, rests not with determined unthinking physical universal properties, but with an entity that thinks and can choose what to do, or do nothing. That's all free will is, the faculty of a being to choose what to do, not bound by the deterministic universal properties of inanimate objects.

determined by systematical scientific world view, physical world is not allowing, it is thinking and choosing, willing and living in a form of a human. humans are part of, the same physical wold, not unnatural tourists.

if man is standing in a flat surface, he do not think earth is flat, i hope. he think surface is flat.
if man have to choose, he do not think world have to choose. he think he have to choose.
still, surface is part of the earth and man is part of the world. flat surface is not exactly flat and world have to choose, in a form of a man. better accuracy gives better forecasts.

It would seem you think yourself an automaton, so that you can bear no responsibility for your actions, you are in denial my friend. Everything in the universe, that is not an animal, is not a thinking entity, unless you can prove otherwise. Animals are thinking entities, free will lies within the realm of thinking animals. That's all it is. Since you can't find something fantastical in the term, you have decided that it cannot be, your denial of it's existence is due to your wanting it to be something more than what it is. I'm sorry, deal with it.

[Mark Question]

It would seem you think yourself an automaton, so that you can bear no responsibility for your actions, you are in denial my friend. Everything in the universe, that is not an animal, is not a thinking entity, unless you can prove otherwise. Animals are thinking entities, free will lies within the realm of thinking animals. That's all it is. Since you can't find something fantastical in the term, you have decided that it cannot be, your denial of it's existence is due to your wanting it to be something more than what it is. I'm sorry, deal with it.

autonomous automaton is responsible to maintain own autonomy, responsible agent.

how "free will lies within the realm of thinking animals" in physical world where everything is physical, where everything is determined by systematical theories and formulas of scientific physical laws?

[SpheresOfBalance]

It would seem you think yourself an automaton, so that you can bear no responsibility for your actions, you are in denial my friend. Everything in the universe, that is not an animal, is not a thinking entity, unless you can prove otherwise. Animals are thinking entities, free will lies within the realm of thinking animals. That's all it is. Since you can't find something fantastical in the term, you have decided that it cannot be, your denial of it's existence is due to your wanting it to be something more than what it is. I'm sorry, deal with it.

autonomous automaton is responsible to maintain own autonomy, responsible agent.

how "free will lies within the realm of thinking animals" in physical world where everything is physical, where everything is determined by systematical theories and formulas of scientific physical laws?

Reread the above to find free will where it lives, I'll not keep repeating it for the hard headed. It is nothing fantastical, it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals to a lessor extent, as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct, it's that simple.

[Mark Question]

Reread the above to find free will where it lives, I'll not keep repeating it for the hard headed. It is nothing fantastical, it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals to a lessor extent, as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct, it's that simple.

"free will lies within the realm of thinking animals"? "it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals"?
is there something else than scientifically determined processes and objects?

"as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct"?
autonomous automaton can do that, and it is coherent with modern scientific world view.
"free will" is poetical and inaccurate, unpredictable conception. too simple.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Reread the above to find free will where it lives, I'll not keep repeating it for the hard headed. It is nothing fantastical, it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals to a lessor extent, as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct, it's that simple.

"free will lies within the realm of thinking animals"? "it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals"?
is there something else than scientifically determined processes and objects?
In the mind, maybe.


"as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct"?
autonomous automaton can do that,
no it can't, as always the abilities are only ever those, that were programmed. Humans can think, outside the box of programming.
and it is coherent with modern scientific world view.
"free will" is poetical and inaccurate, unpredictable conception. too simple.

[Mark Question]

Reread the above to find free will where it lives, I'll not keep repeating it for the hard headed. It is nothing fantastical, it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals to a lessor extent, as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct, it's that simple.

"free will lies within the realm of thinking animals"? "it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals"?
is there something else than scientifically determined processes and objects?
In the mind, maybe.


"as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct"?
autonomous automaton can do that,
no it can't, as always the abilities are only ever those, that were programmed. Humans can think, outside the box of programming.
and it is coherent with modern scientific world view.
"free will" is poetical and inaccurate, unpredictable conception. too simple.

maybe there is a god, outside the scientifically determined world view. maybe there are the free will and the god both. maybe more. unicorns and angels...

autonomous automaton can choose between possibilities. humans are dna-programmed to think.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Reread the above to find free will where it lives, I'll not keep repeating it for the hard headed. It is nothing fantastical, it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals to a lessor extent, as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct, it's that simple.

"free will lies within the realm of thinking animals"? "it simply lives in the minds of human, and other animals"?
is there something else than scientifically determined processes and objects?
In the mind, maybe.


"as they choose between possibilities, within their physical construct"?
autonomous automaton can do that,
no it can't, as always the abilities are only ever those, that were programmed. Humans can think, outside the box of programming.
and it is coherent with modern scientific world view.
"free will" is poetical and inaccurate, unpredictable conception. too simple.

maybe there is a god, outside the scientifically determined world view. maybe there are the free will and the god both. maybe more. unicorns and angels...
Maybe, and maybe it's just aliens that relatively, appear as gods.

autonomous automaton can choose between possibilities. humans are dna-programmed to think.
Incorrect, take a robot that is programmed to arc weld the body for a cooper mini-car, and instead supply it with the body of super-sized mining dump truck, whose tire diameter you could fit a mini-car, it would not know to weld in different locations, unless you changed the program, but a man could change his own program. Better yet instead of supplying a steel bodied mini-car, supply a plastic one, the robot would simply melt plastic, potentially causing a fire, where it would have glued the plastic, if it could re program/retool itself. But a man would grab glue instead. There is no such thing as a robot that can account for everything without a man reprogramming it. And since a man programmed/built it in the first place, it really didn't do anything it self, did it. As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did but at all, as it's impossible. So as man did somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze? You are a silly human, that has watched/read far too much science-fiction.

[Mark Question]

autonomous automaton can choose between possibilities. humans are dna-programmed to think.
Incorrect, take a robot that is programmed to arc weld the body for a cooper mini-car, and instead supply it with the body of super-sized mining dump truck, whose tire diameter you could fit a mini-car, it would not know to weld in different locations, unless you changed the program, but a man could change his own program. Better yet instead of supplying a steel bodied mini-car, supply a plastic one, the robot would simply melt plastic, potentially causing a fire, where it would have glued the plastic, if it could re program/retool itself. But a man would grab glue instead. There is no such thing as a robot that can account for everything without a man reprogramming it. And since a man programmed/built it in the first place, it really didn't do anything it self, did it. As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did but at all, as it's impossible. So as man did somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze? You are a silly human, that has watched/read far too much science-fiction.

1. "There is no such thing as a robot that can account for everything without a man reprogramming it". there is no man that can account for everything. there is no robot that can account for more than a man, today. today man needs robots and other artificial intelligent systems to survive. tomorrow those systems have to be even more autonomous and intelligent, even better than a man if going to help humans to survive. evolutionary algorithms and neural networks are already here today. jules verne wrote classical science fiction named "from the earth to the moon".

2. "since a man programmed/built it in the first place, it really didn't do anything it self".
autonomous automaton as a physical structure really do not do anything it self, only as a part of the universe. man also is a part of the physical universe, part of the evolution and since the universe programmed/built him/it in the first place, a man do not do anything it self.

3. "it doesn't evolve, not only as man did but at all, as it's impossible."
man also is a part of the physical universe, part of the evolution and since a man is programming/building it, it is evolving too.

[SpheresOfBalance]

autonomous automaton can choose between possibilities. humans are dna-programmed to think.
Incorrect, take a robot that is programmed to arc weld the body for a cooper mini-car, and instead supply it with the body of super-sized mining dump truck, whose tire diameter you could fit a mini-car, it would not know to weld in different locations, unless you changed the program, but a man could change his own program. Better yet instead of supplying a steel bodied mini-car, supply a plastic one, the robot would simply melt plastic, potentially causing a fire, where it would have glued the plastic, if it could re program/retool itself. But a man would grab glue instead. There is no such thing as a robot that can account for everything without a man reprogramming it. And since a man programmed/built it in the first place, it really didn't do anything it self, did it. As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did but at all, as it's impossible. So as man did somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze? You are a silly human, that has watched/read far too much science-fiction.

1. "There is no such thing as a robot that can account for everything without a man reprogramming it". there is no man that can account for everything. there is no robot that can account for more than a man, today. today man needs robots and other artificial intelligent systems to survive. tomorrow those systems have to be even more autonomous and intelligent, even better than a man if going to help humans to survive. evolutionary algorithms and neural networks are already here today. jules verne wrote classical science fiction named "from the earth to the moon".

2. "since a man programmed/built it in the first place, it really didn't do anything it self".
autonomous automaton as a physical structure really do not do anything it self, only as a part of the universe. man also is a part of the physical universe, part of the evolution and since the universe programmed/built him/it in the first place, a man do not do anything it self.

3. "it doesn't evolve, not only as man did but at all, as it's impossible."
man also is a part of the physical universe, part of the evolution and since a man is programming/building it, it is evolving too.

You missed quite a bit:

As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did, but at all, as it's impossible.

So as man did, somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze?

And that is the difference my friend, and is where FREE WILL resides.

[Mark Question]

As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did, but at all, as it's impossible.

So as man did, somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze?

And that is the difference my friend, and is where FREE WILL resides.

if natural creature like man is making lots of copies of robots, cars, cell phones, computers or anything else, and if man is fixing them and improving them constantly, they are evolving also today as we speak, by means of darwins natural selection.

so what is the difference, where free will resides?

[SpheresOfBalance]

As man did, build a robot as simple as the first animal ever on earth, and watch that it doesn't evolve, not only as man did, but at all, as it's impossible.

So as man did, somewhere in the universe, you believe that robots are springing to life from chemical ooze?

And that is the difference my friend, and is where FREE WILL resides.

if natural creature like man is making lots of copies of robots, cars, cell phones, computers or anything else, and if man is fixing them and improving them constantly, they are evolving also today as we speak, by means of darwins natural selection.
You're not listening, the man animal reinvents himself, and as you just indicated, a robot needs man to help it do so. A simple one celled animal has an innate chemical intelligence, consciousness, while a comparable single celled robot would not/could not exist, to reproduce itself nor self learn the benefits of becoming a multicellular organism. As man creates robots he has to recreate his abilities in the form of a program for a robot to do as man has done. In this ability of not needing to be programmed by another entity, is where free will resides. So where was this programmer of man? I guess you are saying that you believe in a god, that created the cosmos, earth and man 6 thousand years ago, and therefore was his programmer?

I'm not saying there is absolutely no creator, but it surely didn't happen as written in any or mans books on religion, as science has found proof of life, of a far greater age, than a mere 6 thousand years.

so what is the difference, where free will resides?

[Mark Question]

You're not listening, the man animal reinvents himself, and as you just indicated, a robot needs man to help it do so. A simple one celled animal has an innate chemical intelligence, consciousness, while a comparable single celled robot would not/could not exist, to reproduce itself nor self learn the benefits of becoming a multicellular organism. As man creates robots he has to recreate his abilities in the form of a program for a robot to do as man has done. In this ability of not needing to be programmed by another entity, is where free will resides. So where was this programmer of man? I guess you are saying that you believe in a god, that created the cosmos, earth and man 6 thousand years ago, and therefore was his programmer?

I'm not saying there is absolutely no creator, but it surely didn't happen as written in any or mans books on religion, as science has found proof of life, of a far greater age, than a mere 6 thousand years.

robot needs environment , like man. environment gives all, to man and to all creatures, also to robots. man needs environment. dna, lanquage, sensory information,..all creatures are part of their environment. they are the same environment. world, universe, all there is, is one.

man needs to be programmed constantly by the same entity, by environment. by feedback. where free will resides?
programmer of man is all there is, one universe, mans environment and environments man.
as science has found. science has not found god or free will. keep them if you like. outside the science.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You're not listening, the man animal reinvents himself, and as you just indicated, a robot needs man to help it do so. A simple one celled animal has an innate chemical intelligence, consciousness, while a comparable single celled robot would not/could not exist, to reproduce itself nor self learn the benefits of becoming a multicellular organism. As man creates robots he has to recreate his abilities in the form of a program for a robot to do as man has done. In this ability of not needing to be programmed by another entity, is where free will resides. So where was this programmer of man? I guess you are saying that you believe in a god, that created the cosmos, earth and man 6 thousand years ago, and therefore was his programmer?

I'm not saying there is absolutely no creator, but it surely didn't happen as written in any or mans books on religion, as science has found proof of life, of a far greater age, than a mere 6 thousand years.

robot needs environment , like man. environment gives all, to man and to all creatures, also to robots. man needs environment. dna, lanquage, sensory information,..all creatures are part of their environment. they are the same environment. world, universe, all there is, is one.

man needs to be programmed constantly by the same entity, by environment. by feedback. where free will resides?
programmer of man is all there is, one universe, mans environment and environments man.
as science has found. science has not found god or free will. keep them if you like. outside the science.

Non-sequitur! That man has not found something, doesn't necessarily indicate, that it doesn't exist. The secrets of mind and consciousness still escapes man's science, so you cannot attest with certainty.

But as to robots, they are just smarter washing machines, they shall never be as capable as man, as they have no 'will' to do anything but what they're told.