An Introspective Look at Choice

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Bernard
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by Bernard »

Must everything be researched and qualified by proper scientific method to have veracity?People seem to be conditioned nowadays into regarding any given art product as for entertainment value, and therefore unreal or improbable in our daily lives. If you ask me daily life is more unreal than art.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Bernard wrote:The point of the film was to show proof that free will exists: the man engages the will of the others on the train in a very deliberate way. I thought laughter was an excellent example of the exercising of free will. We can, and do, choose to laugh ; or we laugh compulsively - against our free will.
But how can a fictitious screenplay demonstrate anything real, was my point; it was scripted!
If something similar was filmed without the participants knowledge, that was a genuine spontaneous occurrence, one might be able to see that some percentage laughed 'with' him, some percentage laughed 'at' him, and a final percentage 'did not' laugh at all. At that point, dependent or not dependent, on the percentages, would there be any difference in your point?

I think so!

Would this speak more of the relativity between that of the inner man (arrogance, esteem, security, fear, etc.)? And before someone jumps upon these emotional responses as limiting free will, I see that they are a part of it; that free will, knowledge, and oppression decide the percentages of each, of their relative existences, knowledge being the enlightening factor, at least in ones mind (oppression). Of course they feed one another, but I can see how some, religious types in particular, may be stuck with the chicken or egg paradox, which is actually no paradox at all; (evolution).

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

RG1 wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:(Edit 1)P.S. As an example (see below), If you had read my definitions above, then you'd have known, that your reason 'is' you. I guess you're referring to schizophrenics.
RG1 wrote:If yes, then this choice was determined by your reason (not by you).
No, I am not referring to schizophrenics.

You say "...that your reason 'is' you." Please clarify your meaning of the 'you' that you refer to here. Is this 'you' the conscious (thinking/knowing) self. Or the other part of the self (that I refer to as the 'unconscious' self) that operates automatically without conscious control, such as operating all the bodily functions (pumping heart, breathing lungs, etc.), creating compulsions, desires, fears, etc.
There is only one you that thinks/reasons, which is the conscious mind. The part of modern mans mind, that he is seemingly unaware, does not reason/think, it just controls the body. Fear is taught, as well as desire, etc. I have no idea why you are referring to a 'disorder,' as I thought we were talking about 'normal' people, not schizophrenics and the like.
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Bernard wrote:Must everything be researched and qualified by proper scientific method to have veracity?People seem to be conditioned nowadays into regarding any given art product as for entertainment value, and therefore unreal or improbable in our daily lives. If you ask me daily life is more unreal than art.
Bernard, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, that's just the way I see it. It was an interesting video, I just feel that it says less about human nature, than one might imagine. Would you have liked it better, if I had lied to you, about how I see it? I hope not.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Bernard wrote:The point of the film was to show proof that free will exists: the man engages the will of the others on the train in a very deliberate way. I thought laughter was an excellent example of the exercising of free will. We can, and do, choose to laugh ; or we laugh compulsively - against our free will.
But how can a fictitious screenplay demonstrate anything real, was my point; it was scripted!
If something similar was filmed without the participants knowledge, that was a genuine spontaneous occurrence, one might be able to see that some percentage laughed 'with' him, some percentage laughed 'at' him, and a final percentage 'did not' laugh at all. At that point, dependent or not dependent, on the percentages, would there be any difference in your point?

I think so!

Would this speak more of the relativity between that of the inner man (arrogance, esteem, security, fear, etc.)? And before someone jumps upon these emotional responses as limiting free will, I see that they are a part of it; that free will, knowledge, and oppression decide the percentages of each, of their relative existences, knowledge being the enlightening factor, at least in ones mind (oppression). Of course they feed one another, but I can see how some, religious types in particular, may be stuck with the chicken or egg paradox, which is actually no paradox at all; (evolution).

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
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RG1
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by RG1 »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:P.S. As an example (see below), If you had read my definitions above, then you'd have known, that your reason 'is' you. I guess you're referring to schizophrenics.
RG1 wrote:No, I am not referring to schizophrenics.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:I have no idea why you are referring to a 'disorder,' as I thought we were talking about 'normal' people, not schizophrenics and the like.
Huh??? Where did I ever refer to a 'disorder' or to 'schizophrenics'?? Are you confusing me with someone else?
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RG1
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by RG1 »

RG1 wrote:You say "...that your reason 'is' you." Please clarify your meaning of the 'you' that you refer to here. Is this 'you' the conscious (thinking/knowing) self. Or the other part of the self (that I refer to as the 'unconscious' self) that operates automatically without conscious control, such as operating all the bodily functions (pumping heart, breathing lungs, etc.), creating compulsions, desires, fears, etc.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:There is only one you that thinks/reasons, which is the conscious mind. The part of modern mans mind, that he is seemingly unaware, does not reason/think, it just controls the body. Fear is taught, as well as desire, etc.
Do you think maybe compulsions, desires, and fears (and other non-conscious stuff) can factor into the reasoning process?
Or is the reasoning process free of all of these unconscious influences?
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Bernard
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by Bernard »

[quote="SpheresOfBalance"]Bernard, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, that's just the way I see it. It was an interesting video, I just feel that it says less about human nature, than one might imagine. Would you have liked it better, if I had lied to you, about how I see it? I hope not.[/color]

I think it asks for the viewer to consider questions about human nature rather than tell the viewer about human nature. We are too used to being told.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

RG1 wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:P.S. As an example (see below), If you had read my definitions above, then you'd have known, that your reason 'is' you. I guess you're referring to schizophrenics.
RG1 wrote:No, I am not referring to schizophrenics.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:I have no idea why you are referring to a 'disorder,' as I thought we were talking about 'normal' people, not schizophrenics and the like.
Huh??? Where did I ever refer to a 'disorder' or to 'schizophrenics'?? Are you confusing me with someone else?
You used the word compulsion, which is associated with the psychiatric disorder, OCB. Even if not OCB then still a disorder.
reasonvemotion
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by reasonvemotion »

Is there a difference or are they the same. Free Will and Will.

He lost "the will to live".

Does this refer to a person's "free" will. "Free will or will" is part of being human and a person can manipulate it.
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RG1
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by RG1 »

reasonvemotion wrote:Is there a difference or are they the same. Free Will and Will.

He lost "the will to live".

Does this refer to a person's "free" will. "Free will or will" is part of being human and a person can manipulate it.
Free-will and will are different.

'Will' is synonymous with 'desire' (i.e. He lost "the desire to live".)
'Free-will" is the ability to freely (without constraints) dictate one's will (or desire).

From a personal viewpoint, I think 'free-will' is just an illusion, because for me, it seems that at any, and every, point in time, I am simply powerless to desire that which I don't desire (and to not-desire that which I do desire). My will (and desires) are what they are, and seem to be under the control of my non-conscious self.
Last edited by RG1 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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RG1
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by RG1 »

Notvacka wrote:Ah, the ever popular question of free will! :D

Free will is the experience of having choices, alternatives to choose from, and of being the one doing the choosing.

Yes, free will is this experience, a fundamental aspect of human existence. We make choices every day, and experience them as real.

However, choices do not exist in reality. But that doesn't matter much, because human existence is what we experience it to be. Reality might be important, but it's not that important. Because we don't live our lives in reality. We know that reality is out there, but we can't get at it. We all live in a shared illusion. And though we share it, it's not even the same illusion. Each of us have their own version.

Knowing that choices don't exist in reality doesn't prevent you from choosing. It doesn't even enable you not to choose, because choosing not to choose is also a choice. We are stuck in the illusion of free will, though there is nothing "free" about it. It's easy to expose the illusion as such, but impossible to escape it. In other words, you don't have a free will, but free will has you.
Notvacka, well said.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

RG1 wrote:
RG1 wrote:You say "...that your reason 'is' you." Please clarify your meaning of the 'you' that you refer to here. Is this 'you' the conscious (thinking/knowing) self. Or the other part of the self (that I refer to as the 'unconscious' self) that operates automatically without conscious control, such as operating all the bodily functions (pumping heart, breathing lungs, etc.), creating compulsions, desires, fears, etc.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:There is only one you that thinks/reasons, which is the conscious mind. The part of modern mans mind, that he is seemingly unaware, does not reason/think, it just controls the body. Fear is taught, as well as desire, etc.
Do you think maybe compulsions, desires, and fears (and other non-conscious stuff) can factor into the reasoning process?
Or is the reasoning process free of all of these unconscious influences?
I see that humans just deny what they don't want to admit about themselves, for what ever reason, i.e., peer pressure, social norms, etc., if you want to call that unconscious, fine. I see it as quite something else.
Desire and want, same thing! No one can be compelled to do anything they don't already want (desire). Fear, people don't usually want to admit to. There is nothing that one can't tap into, contained within their memory, as a consideration in reasoning. Those that think otherwise are just lying to themselves.
chaz wyman
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by chaz wyman »

reasonvemotion wrote:Is there a difference or are they the same. Free Will and Will.

He lost "the will to live".

Does this refer to a person's "free" will. "Free will or will" is part of being human and a person can manipulate it.
Lost the 'will' to live' is a phrase that does not really refer to a thing lost. You might just as well say he is now willing to die.

Free-will is a phrase intended to assert that a person can make a choice without regard to any external pressure. Determinism says that the choice that is made is made by pressures from within determined by a range of causal factors.
There is not contradiction here except when a person suggests that someone may make any choice. For example, I cannot freely choose to believe in God, as that would fly against everything I know and the think about the world I live in. That is a choice I can never make. God has so made me as to not believe.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

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I see that it starts with lies. More often, to others, but eventually, more to themselves, although it doesn't necessarily have to start with others, it can start with the self, usually due to traumatic experience. The more one lies to themselves, the more they become confused, lost, ungrounded, crazy, more likely to seriously hurt someone, and finally unconscious. So I'm saying that there are those with relatively greater and lessor subconsciousness, if you want to call it that, but essentially it is made up of all the lies that contradict the truth, that one has suppressed by the conscious, so as not to deal with the contradiction. Can these then interfere with the free will of the conscious, as I've just said, but one has to remember that it was a conscious effort in the beginning to lie, therefore the size of the subconscious is determined by the conscious, sometimes until breakdown. All subconscious is therefore accessible by the conscious, one just has to want to fix, (be honest with), themselves, but many just want to survive however they can, whether they end up insane or not, they see that the, premature vision, of their ends, justifies any means.

Those that blame things on the subconscious, as in threatening their reason etc, have found greater refuge yet, in their lies, definitely serving their purpose. I'm not saying that the ability to be clear, (maximize free will) is instantaneous, and unfortunately some shall never recover from the whirling vortex of internal conflict that they have managed to manifest. These usually commit suicide, murder, rape, and other heinous crimes. The problem, all the while, their conscious making, though they blame others, because remember, truth matters not to them, only getting by, at all costs, they dare not attack their selfishness. So of course they see themselves as having no free will, as it suits their insanity. In time, however, one can rise up out of the ashes of their lies, to themselves, like a mighty phoenix, soaring the universal cosmic winds.
james1951
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by james1951 »

RG1 wrote:Could I have chosen differently than what I actually chose?

At first glance, this question seems silly, as it feels very obvious that I have the power to choose as I please and therefore could have chosen differently than what I had actually chose. This inner power, that I call free-will, allows me to freely exert my will so as to be the intentional self-causer of my choices. In other words, free-will is the power that allows me to freely choose as I so please.

Could I have chosen differently than what I actually chose? Well, first I need to take a closer look at a simple choice to try to see what all is going on. How about the choice that I am confronted with when I walk into a McDonald's and ask for an ice cream cone? The counter girl will then ask me "vanilla or chocolate?", and then shortly thereafter, I will verbally proclaim my choice. It is during this time period of 'shortly thereafter' that my power of free-will emerges and exerts itself as the causer of my choice, and it is here where I need to take a closer look.

My main problem here is trying to recall all that which transpired in that very short period of time, between the counter girl's question and the proclamation of my choice. In football's 'instant replay', they simply rewind the tape, playback in slow motion, and zoom in to take a closer look, so as to clearly see and review all that what really just happened. This is a bit tricky for me because the only playback tape that I have exists as my memory, which fades with time, becoming unclear and fuzzy if I wait too long to recall and replay it. Also, my memory only records my conscious events. As for the unconscious events, I have no memory of them.

Since free-will choices, such as choosing between vanilla and chocolate, are consciously (knowingly) made, then a memory should exist that I can then recall and review. So, AFTER FURTHER REVIEW, it appears that the power of free-will is simply a mirage, an illusionary feeling created by the 'fuzziness of the facts'. I, the conscious me, am only the beneficiary of my choices, and therefore had no choice but to choose as I chose.
We are all influenced by family and social interactions and fate, but there comes a time in each mans life when he cannot say "I was just following orders" "the devil made me do it" or "that's how I was raised"
jesus put it this way "anyone who loves his father or mother more than he loves me is not worthy of me" substitute the word TRUTH for jesus if you don't understand who jesus is.

we all understand the golden rule whether or not we try to dodge it with smart ass remarks.... you know from your own experiences what is right and what is wrong and YOU will at some point have to face that TRUTH. make your choices accordingly. unfortunately fear has a part to play in the choices we make, as does faith.
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RG1
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Re: An Introspective Look at Choice

Post by RG1 »

james1951 wrote:We are all influenced by family and social interactions and fate, but there comes a time in each mans life when he cannot say "I was just following orders" "the devil made me do it" or "that's how I was raised"
jesus put it this way "anyone who loves his father or mother more than he loves me is not worthy of me" substitute the word TRUTH for jesus if you don't understand who jesus is.

we all understand the golden rule whether or not we try to dodge it with smart ass remarks.... you know from your own experiences what is right and what is wrong and YOU will at some point have to face that TRUTH. make your choices accordingly. unfortunately fear has a part to play in the choices we make, as does faith.
James, is there anything in particular about this post you wish to discuss? Or are you merely looking for a spot to spread your propaganda?
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