a defense of drag show/drag queens..

[phyllo]

Satyr is Objectivist Supremo

[iambiguous]

Can someone acquire political prejudices outside of dasein?

My point is that each of us have our own individual reaction to drag queens and drag shows and homosexuality and S & M and other aspects of human sexuality that is not "the norm".

But in not being "the norm", does that [necessarily] make them unnatural, immoral, perverted behaviors?

How do we as individuals acquire our own personal perspectives on them? Might this be rooted in the particular historical and cultural and experiential contexts in which we are "thrown" adventitiously at birth?

Might it revolve around our indoctrination as children? Might it pertain to our own unique trajectory of personal experiences as adults? Might it be embedded in the uniquely personal relationships we accumulate and the uniquely personal things that we read or hear of see over the years?

Had [for any number of reasons] our lives been different, might we have come to think and to feel very different things about sex? Might, down the road, we have new experiences, new relationships and access to new information and knowledge that change our minds about human sexuality?

Or, instead, are there philosophers and scientists among us able to pin down precisely which sexual behaviors are in fact rational and moral? Or irrational and immoral?

Yeah, I just think that the term "dasein" didn't contribute any extra meaning to what you were saying, and I've had the feeling for a while now that if you excluded that word every time you used it, it wouldn't change the meaning of anything you say.

Okay, fine, that's your prerogative.

If you don't believe the points I raise pertaining to dasein in the OPs on these...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

...threads are applicable to your own personal opinions regarding morality and human sexuality, then you don't.

I'm just curious to explore the points of view of those here who seem convinced that their own value judgments really are the most rational manner in which to assess, evaluate and judge such things as drag queens, homosexuality, S&M practices etc.

Those who don't see their own value judgments here as prejudices rooted existentially in the life they lived.

"And I recognize that my current frame of mind is still just a set of political prejudices that I acquired existentially re dasein."

Vs

"And I recognize that my current frame of mind is still just a set of political prejudices that I acquired."

Do those two things have any difference in meaning? If so, what difference? I just don't see it

Again and again...

I first encountered the word Dasein from Heidegger. I was struck by how he used it to explore the idea that each of us is "thrown" adventitiously -- "beyond our control" -- out into a particular world at birth historically, culturally and in terms of our own uniquely personal experiences.

Then I connected the dots between that and the manner in which we come to acquire a "sense of self" in regard to moral and political and religious value judgments. Then the points I raise in the threads above.

Some don't think much of own assessment of dasein as distinguished from Heidegger's Dasein in Being and Time?

Okay, fine, let them dismiss it then.

But are they willing to explore their own moral/political/religious take on drag queens given their own philosophy of life?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Note to Satyr:

Just out of curiosity, would AJ be construed by you as "one of us" or "one of them"? Is he shrill and nasty enough for you in going after those like me here?

Reference to Satyr isn’t comprehensible to me. Someone on another forum?

Because I am involved in defining a philosophical conservatism (which very certainly does not necessarily exclude some categories normally catalogued to the Left) I am interested in the way you think. But there is no nastiness intended nor felt.

I recently defined you (relationally to some descriptions brought up by James Lindsay) as obviously involved in queering. Briefly, it is a subversive stance. In your case it manifests in the ‘loop’ you are in (self-declared) in which you can decide nothing. You have no value-base that you can define as real, and even your own views — always presented as prejudices — are undermined by your continual reference to Dasein. Intellectually, you are neurotic. This is not an attack! You are (by your own admission) intellectual hobbled and crippled.

I examine you and I have no choice but to make efforts to transcend this debilitating condition. You show me something I can quite easily find in myself. And I say it is in many of us. We have been steeped in it.

I am “one of them” insofar as when you act politically and socially (i.e. when people like you bring your non-values or valuelessness out into the public sphere) you fuck things up. Therefore I identify a ‘disordered mind’ but one with lots of certainty, conviction, willfulness and power.

In this sense, yes, we would likely be adversaries and even possibly enemies.

So what else is new! This is the age we are in. The cohesive glue that held the nation together is de-bonding. Surely you must notice this?

So it is best for all concerned to simply and honestly work to comprehend the ideological platform of our adversaries and enemies. This can be conducted with decorum.

Are you going to cut’n’paste AGAIN the same shite you always do? Try to come up with a coherent argument.

[iambiguous]

Note to Satyr:

Just out of curiosity, would AJ be construed by you as "one of us" or "one of them"? Is he shrill and nasty enough for you in going after those like me here?

I really hope one day you can move past your obsession with him and his community. He's not as obsessed with your as you are with him, he's living rent free in your head. What happened that led to this? Apart from him being generally unkind to you and then banning you.

Satyr and I go way back. Back to the time when I was a member of the KT community. Back to when he sent me to the "Dungeon" there. Back to when he "disappeared" me altogether. Back to now:

Back to when, even though I am still listed as a "User" there, I am confronted with this:

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
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And he and his ilk are always important to bring up because, in my view, they reflect the most dangerous sort of objectivists. The kind that, in regard to things like race and ethnicity and Jews and gender and sexuality and politics and the like, they are, for those who are deemed to be "one of them", in the "or else" category.

Think particular Nazis or Communists and their reeducation camps and show trials and gulags and gas chambers.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Again and again...

I first encountered the word Dasein from Heidegger. I was struck by how he used it to explore the idea that each of us is "thrown" adventitiously -- "beyond our control" -- out into a particular world at birth historically, culturally and in terms of our own uniquely personal experiences.

Though one is thrown, one has access to intellect, and intelligent choice through reasoning, places one in an active position in respect to determinism (thrownness).

See? How hard was that?

Then I connected the dots between that and the manner in which we come to acquire a "sense of self" in regard to moral and political and religious value judgments. Then the points I raise in the threads above.

Blah blah blah. “Then, I fuck myself up by disempowering myself through replaying a fallacious ideational loop which has me in its grip and power.”

“If you try to break me out of this I will manifest my copy’n’paste powers which are TREMENDOUS!”

Some don't think much of own assessment of dasein as distinguished from Heidegger's Dasein in Being and Time?

Okay, fine, let them dismiss it then.

Dismiss Heidegger or dismiss an intellectual neurotic? Which?

But are they willing to explore their own moral/political/religious take on drag queens given their own philosophy of life?

What you mean is: “Can I drag them down into the pit of disempowered conviction where I reside…”

The sexual pathologies manifest today take 10 seconds to assess, Iambiguous.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Think particular Nazis or Communists and their reeducation camps and show trials and gulags and gas chambers.

Reductio ad Hitlerum

[phyllo]

Think particular Nazis or Communists and their reeducation camps and show trials and gulags and gas chambers.

That is an interesting question : Would Satyr set up reeducation camps, show trials, gulags and gas chambers?

My personal opinion is that he wouldn't. I don't think that's really what he is saying or what he believes.

[Flannel Jesus]

Note to Satyr:

Just out of curiosity, would AJ be construed by you as "one of us" or "one of them"? Is he shrill and nasty enough for you in going after those like me here?

I really hope one day you can move past your obsession with him and his community. He's not as obsessed with your as you are with him, he's living rent free in your head. What happened that led to this? Apart from him being generally unkind to you and then banning you.

Satyr and I go way back. Back to the time when I was a member of the KT community. Back to when he sent me to the "Dungeon" there. Back to when he "disappeared" me altogether. Back to now:

Back to when, even though I am still listed as a "User" there, I am confronted with this:

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum

And he and his ilk are always important to bring up because, in my view, they reflect the most dangerous sort of objectivists. The kind that, in regard to things like race and ethnicity and Jews and gender and sexuality and politics and the like, they are, for those who are deemed to be "one of them", in the "or else" category.

Think particular Nazis or Communists and their reeducation camps and show trials and gulags and gas chambers.

If you're just obsessed because he was mean to you and then banned you, then... let's find you a new obsession.

As for the whole Dasein thing, every chance you use it it's just tautologically true. It's tautologically true that people think things because of dasein. "I formed this opinion because of dasein" is thus undistinguishable from "I formed this opinion" - UNLESS you can make an argument that some opinions aren't formed because of dasein.

It's not communicating anything if it's always true.

It would be like, every time someone asked me where I was, I said "using the laws of physics to guide my locomotion, I have ended up at Hamwell Train Station", instead of just saying "I'm at Hamwell Train Station". You know what I mean? Like, those extra words are true, but they aren't worth saying, because they're always true and they can't ever not be true.

That's how you use dasein. You use it, apparently, as an excuse to throw in some cute little fancy words you like without adding anything of substance. You could omit it, just like I could omit all the stuff about physics and locomotion, and say what you were saying without it and lose nothing.

[iambiguous]

I really hope one day you can move past your obsession with him and his community. He's not as obsessed with your as you are with him, he's living rent free in your head. What happened that led to this? Apart from him being generally unkind to you and then banning you.

Satyr and I go way back. Back to the time when I was a member of the KT community. Back to when he sent me to the "Dungeon" there. Back to when he "disappeared" me altogether. Back to now:

Back to when, even though I am still listed as a "User" there, I am confronted with this:

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum

And he and his ilk are always important to bring up because, in my view, they reflect the most dangerous sort of objectivists. The kind that, in regard to things like race and ethnicity and Jews and gender and sexuality and politics and the like, they are, for those who are deemed to be "one of them", in the "or else" category.

Think particular Nazis or Communists and their reeducation camps and show trials and gulags and gas chambers.

If you're just obsessed because he was mean to you and then banned you, then... let's find you a new obsession.

As for the whole Dasein thing, every chance you use it it's just tautologically true. It's tautologically true that people think things because of dasein. "I formed this opinion because of dasein" is thus undistinguishable from "I formed this opinion" - UNLESS you can make an argument that some opinions aren't formed because of dasein.

It's not communicating anything if it's always true.

It would be like, every time someone asked me where I was, I said "using the laws of physics to guide my locomotion, I have ended up at Hamwell Train Station", instead of just saying "I'm at Hamwell Train Station". You know what I mean? Like, those extra words are true, but they aren't worth saying, because they're always true and they can't ever not be true.

That's how you use dasein. You use it, apparently, as an excuse to throw in some cute little fancy words you like without adding anything of substance. You could omit it, just like I could omit all the stuff about physics and locomotion, and say what you were saying without it and lose nothing.

Well, that was a complete waste of time.

[iambiguous]

Note to Satyr:

Just out of curiosity, would AJ be construed by you as "one of us" or "one of them"? Is he shrill and nasty enough for you in going after those like me here?

Reference to Satyr isn’t comprehensible to me. Someone on another forum?

Try this:

1] go to his philosophy forum here: https://knowthyself.forumotion.net/f6-agora
2] note the many threads he starts pertaining to things like race and gender and human sexuality and religion
3] become a "user" there and share your own opinions regarding these things in exchanges with him

That way those of us here can explore the extent to which you and he are on the same page or not. In terms of both means and ends.

You'll like him, in my opinion, because, like you, he spends most of his time up in the intellectual contraption clouds.

For example, he'd really appreciate this:

Because I am involved in defining a philosophical conservatism (which very certainly does not necessarily exclude some categories normally catalogued to the Left) I am interested in the way you think. But there is no nastiness intended nor felt.

I recently defined you (relationally to some descriptions brought up by James Lindsay) as obviously involved in queering. Briefly, it is a subversive stance. In your case it manifests in the ‘loop’ you are in (self-declared) in which you can decide nothing. You have no value-base that you can define as real, and even your own views — always presented as prejudices — are undermined by your continual reference to Dasein. Intellectually, you are neurotic. This is not an attack! You are (by your own admission) intellectual hobbled and crippled.

I examine you and I have no choice but to make efforts to transcend this debilitating condition. You show me something I can quite easily find in myself. And I say it is in many of us. We have been steeped in it.

I am “one of them” insofar as when you act politically and socially (i.e. when people like you bring your non-values or valuelessness out into the public sphere) you fuck things up. Therefore I identify a ‘disordered mind’ but one with lots of certainty, conviction, willfulness and power.

In this sense, yes, we would likely be adversaries and even possibly enemies.

So what else is new! This is the age we are in. The cohesive glue that held the nation together is de-bonding. Surely you must notice this?

So it is best for all concerned to simply and honestly work to comprehend the ideological platform of our adversaries and enemies. This can be conducted with decorum.

Are you going to cut’n’paste AGAIN the same shite you always do? Try to come up with a coherent argument.

Whereas I am more interested myself in exploring the part where, specifically, you note how those who were drag queens or homosexuals or off the beaten path in other ways sexually would fare if they were around you in any particular community and you were in a position of power such that you were able to enforce particular "rules of behavior" pertaining to sexuality in the community.

Same in regard to race and gender and Jews.

Now, over at KT, when a new user effectively confronts Satyr's own arrogant, autocratic, authoritarian dogmas they merely get kicked out of the Agora.

No gulags or gas chambers so far. But then KT [like PN] is just a virtual reality, right?

[iambiguous]

Again and again...

I first encountered the word Dasein from Heidegger. I was struck by how he used it to explore the idea that each of us is "thrown" adventitiously -- "beyond our control" -- out into a particular world at birth historically, culturally and in terms of our own uniquely personal experiences.

Though one is thrown, one has access to intellect, and intelligent choice through reasoning, places one in an active position in respect to determinism (thrownness).

See? How hard was that?

Right. As though down through the ages historically and across the globe culturally, there have not been any number of conflicting moral narratives and political agendas in regard to all of the many, many conflicting goods that have rent the species going back to the pre-Socratics.

As though no matter how vast and varied the historical or cultural or personal experiences one might be confronted with, if we all just think about drag queens reasonably and intelligently we'll all think about them...like you do?

Then I connected the dots between that and the manner in which we come to acquire a "sense of self" in regard to moral and political and religious value judgments. Then the points I raise in the threads above.

Blah blah blah. “Then, I fuck myself up by disempowering myself through replaying a fallacious ideational loop which has me in its grip and power.”

“If you try to break me out of this I will manifest my copy’n’paste powers which are TREMENDOUS!”

Okay, in regard to your own moral and political prejudices pertaining to drag queens, how are the points I raise in the threads above not applicable to you?

In fact, in my view, instead of actually addressing that in regard to things like human sexuality and race, you go into Stooge mode and make this all about me.

Thus...

Some don't think much of own assessment of dasein as distinguished from Heidegger's Dasein in Being and Time?

Okay, fine, let them dismiss it then.

Dismiss Heidegger or dismiss an intellectual neurotic? Which?

How pathetic is that? Heideigger embraced National Socialism. And the Nazis persecuted homosexuals.

"Despite the fact that homosexuality was illegal in Germany before the Nazi rise to power, it was generally tolerated. During the 1920s, homosexuality became a subject of public discussion, and a Scientific Humanitarian Committee was instituted for the defense of homosexuals. However, the Nazi Party denounced homosexuality as a deviation from normal behavior that was completely antithetical to its fundamental belief in the need to increase the pure, "Aryan" population and proper family life. The Nazis saw the purpose of sexual relations as reproduction, rather than pleasure, and viewed homosexuality as a threat to the superior "Aryan" race. SHOAH resource center

my emphasis...this is basically how Satyr thinks



So, in your view, did the Nazis have "access to intellect, and intelligent choice through reasoning" back then in regard to those such as drag queens? Would you go as far as they did in dealing with them in a community in which you and your ilk had access to political power?

Note to Satyr:

Werigh in here yourself over at KT.

But are they willing to explore their own moral/political/religious take on drag queens given their own philosophy of life?

What you mean is: “Can I drag them down into the pit of disempowered conviction where I reside…”

The sexual pathologies manifest today take 10 seconds to assess, Iambiguous.

Absolutely shameless.

Doesn't it embarrass you at all to be made a fool of here?

[Flannel Jesus]

Well, that was a complete waste of time.

Unlike your incessant obsession with a forum full of people you hate you. That's a completely effective use of your time...

[Iwannaplato]

I am likely very naive but I fail to see how the way Satyr treats people he disagrees with on a different forum, and the liklihood that he would open a gulag, relates to drag queen shows. 'cause if we're talking about people who pissed us off there was a guy who spat on a Roma outside my grocery store yesterday. Though neither was in drag. Can we talk about that for a while?

The Roma reminded me a bit of Flannel Jesus, so I think it's relevant.

[promethean75]

"Unlike your incessant obsession with a forum full of people you hate you. That's a completely effective use of your time..."

if you've ever shot at fish in a barrel, you'd understand the compulsion to keep going there. it's hard to resist man.

[phyllo]

So, in your view, did the Nazis have "access to intellect, and intelligent choice through reasoning" back then in regard to those such as drag queens? Would you go as far as they did in dealing with them in a community in which you and your ilk had access to political power?

So what if he says that he (and his ilk ) would send homosexuals to concentration camps ... starving them to death, working them to death or gasing them?

How does the discussion proceed after that statement?

What would your response be?

And don't forget that you're a moral nihilist.