Christianity

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:46 pm If I say that people have lost the capability of understanding themselves, and their cultural matrix, and thus of Christian culture (which is so much a part of the whole), it is to try to speak about people who have been, as a result, separated from themselves.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:11 pm Have they lost it, or is it no longer useful/applicable to them?

Have people (in general) ever understood themselves very well? Hasn't self-reflection always been a practice of a minority?

And to say that they have been 'separated from themselves' is a big presumptive stretch. It suggests that you know what they are/aren't and what they should be. It doesn't allow for humankind to shift or waver or redirect without 'losing themselves'. So perhaps the problem with your thesis is that it is not as flexible as humankind and nature actually are.

Maybe Christianity is losing the immense hold it has had in the past because more people are becoming more self-directed and recognizing more paths/methods/options. Whether the fallout will be difficult from disengaging conventions of belief from everything they have been entwined into, I don't know. But in the long run, humankind seems intent on evolving beyond the beliefs that limit it. You don't seem to give humankind much credit. You conclude that those of us unlike you have lost ourselves, rather than recognizing that it makes more sense that the limits of your beliefs limit your understanding of what is naturally taking place.
May we continue this here? Do you mind that I move it here?
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:24 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:46 pm If I say that people have lost the capability of understanding themselves, and their cultural matrix, and thus of Christian culture (which is so much a part of the whole), it is to try to speak about people who have been, as a result, separated from themselves.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:11 pm Have they lost it, or is it no longer useful/applicable to them?

Have people (in general) ever understood themselves very well? Hasn't self-reflection always been a practice of a minority?

And to say that they have been 'separated from themselves' is a big presumptive stretch. It suggests that you know what they are/aren't and what they should be. It doesn't allow for humankind to shift or waver or redirect without 'losing themselves'. So perhaps the problem with your thesis is that it is not as flexible as humankind and nature actually are.

Maybe Christianity is losing the immense hold it has had in the past because more people are becoming more self-directed and recognizing more paths/methods/options. Whether the fallout will be difficult from disengaging conventions of belief from everything they have been entwined into, I don't know. But in the long run, humankind seems intent on evolving beyond the beliefs that limit it. You don't seem to give humankind much credit. You conclude that those of us unlike you have lost ourselves, rather than recognizing that it makes more sense that the limits of your beliefs limit your understanding of what is naturally taking place.
May we continue this here? Do you mind that I move it here?
I thought you didn't want to respond to it at all. Is this the Trash Heap thread where you put things you want to throw away? :lol:
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:58 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:46 pmYour grasp of history is clearly limited, and your respect for the best minds of the past...well, the less pointed out about that, the better.
...only because there's nothing available for you to point out.
If I take your syntax, you just agreed...you have no regard available for the best minds of the past. :shock:

But anyway, I think you've spun out the limit of useful and interesting things you have to say. That seems fairly evident. So I'm happy to move on.
Do you believe "best minds of the past", may also include atheists and agnostics or only those who believe in the bible?
Last edited by Dubious on Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm Do you believe "best minds of the past", may also includes atheists and agnostics or only those who believe in the bible?
I think that's pretty obvious, don't you?

There are some extremely intelligent agnostics. There are also smart Atheists -- in areas other than their Atheism. But Atheism itself is so irrational, so devoid of sufficient evidence or good reasoning, and so logically unsustainable that that's the one area in which nobody is smart if they buy it.

So, as I said, someone like Bertrand Russell is probably a great mathematician. I can't speak to that. But I can tell you he was a lousy theologian and very weak in his reasoning in that area. Nietzsche was a brilliant expositor of the consequences of Atheism; but he hung his "God is dead" axiom on practically nothing at all, and everything else on that...so weak reasoning again.

It's apparent that a man can be brilliant in one area, and not in another.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm Do you believe "best minds of the past", may also includes atheists and agnostics or only those who believe in the bible?
I think that's pretty obvious, don't you?

There are some extremely intelligent agnostics. There are also smart Atheists -- in areas other than their Atheism. But Atheism itself is so irrational, so devoid of sufficient evidence or good reasoning, and so logically unsustainable that that's the one area in which nobody is smart if they buy it.

So, as I said, someone like Bertrand Russell is probably a great mathematician. I can't speak to that. But I can tell you he wasa lousy theologian and very weak in his reasoning in that area. Nietzsche was a brilliant expositor of the consequences of Atheism; but he hung his "God is dead" axiom on practically nothing at all, and everything else on that...so weak reasoning again.

It's apparent that a man can be brilliant in one area, and not in another.
What makes this absurd statement truly irrational is that one doesn't have to be an atheist to be cast aside. Simply not believing in Jesus will elicit the same outcome. Practice any other form of worship and you can kiss the afterlife goodbye.

The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."


You don't like Jesus Christ. You don't like what He says, you don't like what He does, and you don't like what He represents to the world. I get that.

But you will find out how disastrous a position that is. That's all I can tell you. And the kindest thing is to tell you while you can still do something about it.

The rest is up to you.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."


You don't like Jesus Christ. You don't like what He says, you don't like what He does, and you don't like what He represents to the world. I get that.

But you will find out how disastrous a position that is. That's all I can tell you. And the kindest thing is to tell you while you can still do something about it.

The rest is up to you.
'you', "Immanuel can", CLEARLY have absolutely NO idea NOR even clue as to what you are referring to here.

'I' say to 'you', 'What you envision and imagine will happen is NOTHING like what WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN'.

And if you or absolutely ANY one would like to CHALLENGE me on this, then PLEASE absolutely FREE to do so.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."


You don't like Jesus Christ. You don't like what He says, you don't like what He does, and you don't like what He represents to the world.
This is the way I see JC, which has nothing to do with whether I like him or not...

Jesus' command to believe in him is not unlike the first of the Ten Commandments, arranged, it seems, in order of priority...“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.”

...in effect, though there may be other gods, you must bend the knee to me as the one and only. Consider the Golden Calf scenario, when many Jews started worshipping it. In Jesus' case, you instead forfeit any hope of an afterlife for not believing in him. Both reek of the same motive in forcing belief if you know what's good for you! That's the command of a cult leader...not a god!

The other thing Jesus' command reminds me of is Lear's demand to know who loves him most in order to receive the greatest recompense; the ones who proclaim their love the loudest are certain of getting their allotment. Cordelia is outcast in not having confirmed her love well enough to please Lear. Jesus has a lot in common with him in requiring total subservience to obtain the consequent reward.

More down to earth, Jesus and his old man have a resemblance to the Corleone family saga in demanding loyalty under any and all conditions.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm Do you believe "best minds of the past", may also includes atheists and agnostics or only those who believe in the bible?
I think that's pretty obvious, don't you?

There are some extremely intelligent agnostics. There are also smart Atheists -- in areas other than their Atheism. But Atheism itself is so irrational, so devoid of sufficient evidence or good reasoning, and so logically unsustainable that that's the one area in which nobody is smart if they buy it.
But referring to some 'thing', which supposedly created absolutely EVERY thing (other than itself) from absolutely NOTHING AT ALL (other than itself) a "male" or a "he" is somehow 'intelligent' AND 'smart', and NOT 'irrational' AT ALL, right "immanuel can"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm So, as I said, someone like Bertrand Russell is probably a great mathematician. I can't speak to that. But I can tell you he was a lousy theologian and very weak in his reasoning in that area. Nietzsche was a brilliant expositor of the consequences of Atheism; but he hung his "God is dead" axiom on practically nothing at all, and everything else on that...so weak reasoning again.
And, what is YOUR BELIEF that God is a "he" hung on EXACTLY?

Do you have ANY 'reasoning' AT ALL, let alone even a weak one, for such a BELIEF that "God is "he"?"

If yes, then what is that 'reasoning', EXACTLY?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm It's apparent that a man can be brilliant in one area, and not in another.
And, it is VERY CLEAR that 'you', adult human beings, can be COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL in a LOT of areas, especially in religion AND in science.

Within BOTH science AND religion there are ACTUAL human beings who STILL BELIEVE that the WHOLE of the Universe BEGAN.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."


You don't like Jesus Christ. You don't like what He says, you don't like what He does, and you don't like what He represents to the world. I get that.

But you will find out how disastrous a position that is. That's all I can tell you. And the kindest thing is to tell you while you can still do something about it.

The rest is up to you.
Could you come across ANY MORE CLOSED, and IRRATIONAL, "immanuel can"?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pmJesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."
In Jesus' case, you instead forfeit any hope of an afterlife for not believing in him.

Well, you can't "forfeit" what you never had. As the Bible tells us, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Rm.3) You can only get what you have not deserved, by choosing to accept it...

And you aren't "forced" to believe anything. As far as your relationship to God is concerned, you choose your own destiny...where He is, or where He is not. It's entirely your pick.

And by rejecting God when you know better, you make that pick.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:41 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pmJesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."
In Jesus' case, you instead forfeit any hope of an afterlife for not believing in him.

Well, you can't "forfeit" what you never had. As the Bible tells us, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Rm.3) You can only get what you have not deserved, by choosing to accept it...

And you aren't "forced" to believe anything. As far as your relationship to God is concerned, you choose your own destiny...where He is, or where He is not. It's entirely your pick.

And by rejecting God when you know better, you make that pick.
What exactly do you expect will happen to 'you', "immunuel can", just because 'you' BELIEVE in "jesus christ" and/or God, which 'you' expect will NOT happen to "others?
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:41 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm The upshot is, believe in any other variety of worship and you might as well be an atheist.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pmJesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."
In Jesus' case, you instead forfeit any hope of an afterlife for not believing in him.

Well, you can't "forfeit" what you never had. As the Bible tells us, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Rm.3) You can only get what you have not deserved, by choosing to accept it...

And you aren't "forced" to believe anything. As far as your relationship to God is concerned, you choose your own destiny...where He is, or where He is not. It's entirely your pick.

And by rejecting God when you know better, you make that pick.
You're a little confused on the timing. I forfeit an afterlife by not believing in Jesus, as stated explicitly if, in the here and now, I renounce or forfeit any such belief. So yes, belief is mandatory - being too late when I'm already dead - as made clear by all your biblical quotes if eternal life is to be granted. If not believed or no-longer believed, you preempt that from happening. Are you denying that now?
"All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."
...this has to be one of the most inept, moronic, idiotic, not to mention perverse assertions ever made!

If god created us as mortal, subject to error and worse, how would that make us responsible in falling short of his glory and how could that in itself be a sin? We didn't create ourselves. It sounds like god made a boo-boo and is trying to pass the buck by blaming his defective creation in falling short of his ineffable glory!

The more quotes you make, the worse the bible looks.
Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:35 am The other thing Jesus' command reminds me of is Lear's demand to know who loves him most in order to receive the greatest recompense; the ones who proclaim their love the loudest are certain of getting their allotment. Cordelia is outcast in not having confirmed her love well enough to please Lear. Jesus has a lot in common with him in requiring total subservience to obtain the consequent reward.
Curious comparative. The others declared false love while Cordelia had real and pure love yet would not sully herself, apparently, with the *demanded declaration*. So your allegory undermines a surface reading and proposes an examination of what *to love* really means. Examining those who loved Lear one discerns true love as service and also as protection.

And my what a difference between those who profess love when no love is expressed in concrete ways and those who really do love and express it really.

This conversation between Jesus and Simon Peter takes place after Simon Peter’s denial of Jesus. This is the resurrected Jesus now asking about love and service.
“He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.”
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:13 am I forfeit an afterlife by not believing in Jesus, as stated explicitly if, in the here and now, I renounce or forfeit any such belief. So yes, belief is mandatory - being too late when I'm already dead - as made clear by all your biblical quotes if eternal life is to be granted.
I'm actually quite aware of the timing. As are you, apparently. But being aware of a fire doesn't put a fire out. It's what you do with what you know that makes the difference.
If god created us as mortal, subject to error and worse, how would that make us responsible in falling short of his glory and

The first man was not created sinful. Nor was he born prone to death. He could have chosen to remain as he was created, but did not. To borrow a phase from Milton, one might say he was "sufficient to have stood / But free to fall." For man was created "in the image of God," meaning as a creature with genuine volition and choice of his own.

It is his progeny who have been born with the inclination to rebellion and sin -- it was not part of the original design of man as a creature, but rather a choice made by our forefathers, one confirmed by each of us when we reach the age of choice.

But you mistake my purpose. My job here is not to "sell" the Bible to you. It's to tell you what God has said. God does not need a press agent, and I am not aiming at being one. If you know the truth; what you do with it is entirely up to you. For God has made it clear that you will stand or fall on your own choice. [Jesus said] "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

And you know. So I need say no more to you.

"Truth is Hell seen too late." - Thomas Hobbes
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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