Christianity

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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:00 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:56 pm
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:20 am The most pathetic gods ever invented are of the OT and the NT. To believe as literal anything so diminutive as this idiotic father & son story requires a brain scan to discover what went wrong!

I'm still thinking you need a brain scan since you posted this, and failed to answer:-

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:59 am Jesus was nothing more than a cultist preacher not unlike John the Baptist who never once proved themselves useful. Nietzsche is immeasurably more valuable than some ancient back alley preacher who got himself crucified for the most stupid of reasons.
Nietzsche?

What did Nietzsche do in the name of giving hope and promoting love to people?
I was just about to respond to your original post when I encountered this one. Not very patient are you. Since you think I need a brain scan the following won't change your mind.
I am very patient (I am in hospital and am about to die <- a little joke). Patient is an interesting word of two meanings don't you think - do you think both forms of the word originates from the same etymological root? - one is to wait, the other is to be in wait as is ill.

Well, according to you one of us at least needs our brain scanned!

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:00 pmAnyways, this is what I wrote - which is somewhat lengthy - and the final one in response to your question.
Ya, sorry I chopped off the lengthy stuff.

I'm going to concentrate on the comparison that you draw:-...according to you-->

Jesus:- was nothing more than a cultist preacher who never once proved himself useful.
Nietzsche:- is immeasurably more valuable than some ancient back alley preacher who got himself crucified for the most stupid of reasons.

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:00 pmLove & hope are qualities spread among humans unconditionally that being its main signature
Christ, and Christianity (excluding the bigoted scum Evangelists in the US) provide us with a place of solace when loved ones depart, as in attending a beautiful church\cathedral where we can all contemplate the 'passing' of a loved one, and consider such things as an eternal soul. (very useful)
---: How did Nietzsche go on this side of things - death? Was there much love and hope he provided there - to billions of people?

Dubious wrote:..unlike the NT requirement that one must love and believe in Jesus to be saved and receive the tributes of salvation.
Ergo, you are misunderstanding the entire reasoning of Christ (Jesus). To believe in Jesus, is to ACT as He insisted, that is the condition, to love one another, and God. Not much to ask considering what He ultimately did to 'broadcast' such a message two thousand years ago.

Dubious wrote:There is no demand that I must believe someone or something to be deemed worthy of what is freely given by those with some degree of empathy which I believe not uncommon in most of us when called for.
That is something that we cannot be certain of, since the Christian ethos has and is embedded within the psyche of our society for close to two thousand years, past down generations, whether one believes or not, it has permeated. Intelligent atheists understand, that being benevolent to others has its rewards, it makes most of us feel good.

Dubious wrote:Here are a few quotes - referring to love mostly - by him (Nietzsche) who IC denigrates as a syphilitic madman>>

“The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind.”
I tend to agree, I doubt the bigoted Evangelists would.

Dubious wrote:“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
I tend to agree, but it depends on what it is one is seeking upon ones way. If one is seeking any truth to the existence of God, certainly what Christ stated in the bible appears paramount, from my experience. Basically, to know God is to believe in him (Christ).

Dubious wrote:“I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.”
I disagree that God wants to be praised all the time. It demands a level of respect, and certainly deserves it. From experience, it doesn't seem to give much of a flying crap about being 'worshipped' either. It appears to appreciate us when we thank God for what we have, even if it appears to be very little.

Dubious wrote:“What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives acts and experiences otherwise than we do?”
Well, that's part of it. I as a Christian panentheist understand and rejoice others and their cultures. Indeed, I find it fascinating when I get an Uber or Taxi home and discuss a Seikh, Hindu or Muslim's perception of God - as it manifested throughout their culture via those that would have been communicated to via God.

Dubious wrote:“What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil.”
I am not sure what is being said here regarding 'beyond' - good - evil, it is too difficult to discern the context Nietzsche is attempting to convey.

Dubious wrote:“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”
Same goes for atheism.

Dubious wrote:"The demand to be loved is the greatest of all arrogant presumptions."
Anything that is demanded must have a valid caveat, in this case with regard to love and God, it is NOT demanded, just requested and the only beneficiary is the one that has faith in aforementioned love. God needs NOTHING - something it or the sage told me in my early years of gnosis.

Dubious wrote:"There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings."
There would be a lot more love and goodness in the world if people followed the actual words of Christ instead of man's religions. People nowadays cannot see Christ for the Churches - and those 'Churches' tend to be big money making ventures with PASTOR - ROT_SAPs that are probably as atheist as most, just cashing in on the gullible that take the buy_bull literally and listen to every stupid thing someone in a shiny suit tells them.

Very very sad, if they (Christians) just refused to attend these auditoriums and read from the bible when inclined for themselves, they probably would feel a lot more connected to the truth of what Christ said and did, and the reasoning of it all.

Dubious wrote:Make of it what you want!
I think I did my best. Nietzsche - clearly an intelligent man, but one that only saw a book full of contradictions and hypocrisy - of which it has much and so closed his mind to it all, the bible where one could be such a sap as to literally buy_bull.

Did he quote much from the bible, and quiz it? If so, I'd be interested in what he had to say about Genesis. :D

SO.

Are you still certain that Jesus has no purpose, and is indeed of a lesser purpose than Nietzsche?
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:03 pm One thing for sure, Christianity cannot be discussed on a secular dominated forum.
What a totally ridiculous statement.

So far there are 2383 replies on this thread (it's called Re: Christianity)

JUST HOW SURE ARE YOU? (that Christianity is NOT being discussed on this 'secular dominated forum'?)

:twisted:
The only thing ridiculous is 2383 confusing Christendom with Christianity. At least Kierkegard could introduce some common sense:
People who perhaps never once enter a church, never think about God, never mention his name except in oaths! People upon whom it has never dawned that they might have any obligation to God, people who either regard it as a maximum to be guiltless of transgressing criminal law, or do not count even this quite necessary! Yet all these people, even those who assert that no God exists, are all of them Christians, call themselves Christians, are recognized as Christians by the State, are buried as Christians by the Church, are certified as Christians for eternity.

(quoted in Protestant Thought in the 19th Century by Claude Welch p.294)

Christendom has done away with Christianity, without being quite aware of it. The consequence is that, if anything is to be done, one must try again to introduce Christianity into Christendom.

ibid p.295
So what actually do we discuss and for some reason call it Christianity?
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

I don't see anything in Jesus that hasn't already been mentioned many times, in one form or another, long before he came on the scene. Everyone is free to choose their own feel-good liquor which at least has that effect going for it. What more need be said.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:46 pm I don't see anything in Jesus that hasn't already been mentioned many times, in one form or another, long before he came on the scene. Everyone is free to choose their own feel-good liquor which at least has that effect going for it. What more need be said.
Sure.

Perhaps an answer to my question:- Are you still certain that Jesus has no purpose, and is indeed of a lesser purpose than Nietzsche?
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:56 pm
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:46 pm I don't see anything in Jesus that hasn't already been mentioned many times, in one form or another, long before he came on the scene. Everyone is free to choose their own feel-good liquor which at least has that effect going for it. What more need be said.
Sure.

Perhaps an answer to my question:- Are you still certain that Jesus has no purpose, and is indeed of a lesser purpose than Nietzsche?
As written in one of my prior posts on the subject, without Paul, Jesus would have been a history refugee, hardly known at all. So to answer your question the answer is yes!
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Owe well.

...and by the way, your response regarding Paul to my question is non-sequitur to your answer.
Last edited by attofishpi on Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:46 pm I don't see anything in Jesus that hasn't already been mentioned many times, in one form or another, long before he came on the scene. Everyone is free to choose their own feel-good liquor which at least has that effect going for it. What more need be said.
Can you explain the objective meaning of this biblical passage from Matthew 16? If you cannot then maybe you don't understand Jesus mission and just condemn suicide.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:08 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:46 pm I don't see anything in Jesus that hasn't already been mentioned many times, in one form or another, long before he came on the scene. Everyone is free to choose their own feel-good liquor which at least has that effect going for it. What more need be said.
Can you explain the objective meaning of this biblical passage from Matthew 16? If you cannot then maybe you don't understand Jesus mission and just condemn suicide.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Can't explain anything unless I known what you imply by "objective meaning". Objectively, how do we know Jesus said any of it, since it's all 3rd hand stuff written as propaganda long after he died leaving no references except hearsay from those who never knew him.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:26 am LOL
You have 13 pointless, rambling, unthinking messages in my box.

I'm reading none of them. Sorry. Bye.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:33 am This, of course, does not belong to mainstream Jewish theology being opposite to it.
Being "mainstream Jewish theology" is not a test for the truthfulness or falsehood of any particular proposition.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:55 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:59 am Jesus was nothing more than a cultist preacher not unlike John the Baptist who never once proved themselves useful. Nietzsche is immeasurably more valuable than some ancient back alley preacher who got himself crucified for the most stupid of reasons.
Nietzsche?

What did Nietzsche do in the name of giving hope and promoting love to people?
He died young....probably of siphilis, definitely insane. That much, his biographers can tell us. But he did leave a great road map for people like Hitler, who was quite fond of Nietzsche. So he certainly had his own legacy.

I don't feel unsure about holding up his record against that of Jesus Christ...that's for sure. :wink:
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:43 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:55 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:59 am Jesus was nothing more than a cultist preacher not unlike John the Baptist who never once proved themselves useful. Nietzsche is immeasurably more valuable than some ancient back alley preacher who got himself crucified for the most stupid of reasons.
Nietzsche?

What did Nietzsche do in the name of giving hope and promoting love to people?
He died young....probably of siphilis, definitely insane. That much, his biographers can tell us. But he did leave a great road map for people like Hitler, who was quite fond of Nietzsche. So he certainly had his own legacy.

I don't feel unsure about holding up his record against that of Jesus Christ...that's for sure. :wink:
According to modern medicine that knows all about the course syphilis takes, there are too many anomalies in presuming N had it. Like his father who died a painful death of brain cancer at an early age firmly believing in Jesus, N's symptoms were more like those of his father. Nietzsche was always afraid of inheriting that which killed him. This was pointed out to you a few times as was the fact the Hitler disowned Nietzsche saying he never got anything out of him, in effect traveling his own path. Reading Nietzsche, that makes a whole lot of sense. What the Nazis borrowed is some of the terminology which suited them; the rest they left as a write-off.

Worse than a liar is liar who believes in god! :twisted: :wink:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:04 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:43 am I don't feel unsure about holding up his record against that of Jesus Christ...that's for sure. :wink:
Same comment.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:39 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:33 am This, of course, does not belong to mainstream Jewish theology being opposite to it.
Being "mainstream Jewish theology" is not a test for the truthfulness or falsehood of any particular proposition.
There was no proposition offered.There was only the question of what happens to mainstream Jews who don't believe in Jesus, not the messianic ones you conveniently linked to. Are these Chosen People doomed to perdition through their negation of Jesus? Simple enough question but not having a clue in how to respond, you always re-contexutalize it!

I understand your quandary since, based on your definitions and biblical quotes, they would have to be. But that is going too far condemning outright the biblically chosen for that would manifest a major paradox between the OT & NT!

Safer to damn everyone else who wasn't chosen! :lol:
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:19 am
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:04 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:43 am I don't feel unsure about holding up his record against that of Jesus Christ...that's for sure. :wink:
Same comment.
...and same lie.
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