Why is slavery wrong?

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reasonvemotion
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by reasonvemotion »

Yeah I get it....................it's not your problem.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:44 am
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:25 am

People are born free beings. People are totally free to be slaves.

There is nothing wrong with you.

If there was something wrong with you, then it would be wrong to impose wrongness on the unborn.
Freedom must be overridden by morality.
Slavery [chattel] is morally wrong.
Therefore morally, one cannot have the freedom to be a slave or to enslave, which is the same as no moral freedom to kill humans or be killed.
Freedom and Slavery is a ''Belief'' in this conception.

In reality, no one is free, no one is enslaved.

That which appears as free, was never free.

That which appears as enslaved, was never enslaved.

SIGNATURE
It’s no coincidence that man’s best friend cannot talk.


Conception is a con..only a con can con a con.
As usual you are 'immaturely' changing subject.
As I had stated there is no absolute freedom but only relative freedom.

A prisoner is not free in a prison or his cell but he is FREE to shit anytime he wants.
A person is free to roam the Earth but not that easy to go toward the center of the Earth or out into space.
So there is only relative freedom.

This relative-Freedom whatever the context must be overridden by morality.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by reasonvemotion »

The descendants of captured slaves should be offered an apology.

sure: identify those descendants, then identify the descendants of those specific slavers, then go get those apologies

me: not a slaver, and not a descendant of slavers...I don't owe anyone diddly


Of course you don't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dild-xAzJ0
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:44 am Slavery [chattel] is morally wrong.
What's your evidence of that?
As Henry had stated, it is intuitive for any normal person not to be 'owned' as a chattel and in total control by another human.
This intuition arises from a natural inherent impulse which is felt by ALL normal humans except the rare % of insane and abnormal.

There is no solid evidence to support "Slavery [chattel] is morally wrong" but it is at this point an "unproven" hypothesis.
Individually, no normal person will want to be enslaved by another humans, including the enslaver [as Henry stated].
This is supported by reports of individual experiences and views since human history.

However the hypothesis is clearly supported by the trend of reduction in slavery [chattel] since humans started to enslave other humans, 50,000 or 10,000 years ago to the present.
At present all sovereign nations has banned and enacted laws to make chattel-slavery illegal and punishable.
This progress of deterrent against chattel-slavery is definitely driven by the natural inherent anti-slavery impulse within all normal individuals. It cannot be attribute to theism since the immutable doctrines of various theism include the promotion or condoning of slavery.

The inherent impulse that slavery [chattel] is morally wrong is very obvious to the majority thus no group has bother to "prove" it like a scientific theory.
At present, albeit very not practical, it is not impossible to test the hypothesis by a survey of opinion from the nearly 8 billion of humans [except the minute abnormal %] on earth.
In addition, various psychological and physiological tests can be done to test the hypothesis.

But the most critical is to implement the mission to trigger that natural inherent moral impulse in the majority of humans to the degree there is not need to rely on external laws to deter chattel slavery.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:55 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:44 am Slavery [chattel] is morally wrong.
What's your evidence of that?
As Henry had stated, it is intuitive for any normal person not to be 'owned' as a chattel and in total control by another human.
All that tells us is that the victims of slavery don't like it. It doesn't tell us it's wrong. Maybe we DO like having people around to serve us. Why should the victim's feelings be telling, but the enslaver's preferences disregarded? After all, the enslaver has at least one thing the enslaved does not: the power.
However the hypothesis is clearly supported by the trend of reduction in slavery [chattel] since humans started to enslave other humans, 50,000 or 10,000 years ago to the present.
That's actually a factually false claim.

There are more slaves in the world today than at any time in history.(https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/) So your argument now counts against you, if it counts at all.
At present all sovereign nations has banned and enacted laws to make chattel-slavery illegal and punishable.
Again, not true. Sorry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_i ... st_century

Not all countries have banned slavery. In fact, it's perfectly legal in many. But even had every last one banished it, that would be a purely arbitrary choice on their part, unless you have some better reason to show that the law is actually right itself.
...various psychological and physiological tests can be done to test the hypothesis.
I call "bluff." Name the tests you think can do this. I don't believe there are any at all. Nor will anybody else, I'm thinking.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:45 pm The questioner would need to specify whether he means categorically or hypothetically 'wrong'. If the former, then no, there would be no such thing. If the latter, then sure, but only relative to the effectiveness in establishing some desired end. An end, I would add, that might not be shared by everyone. So here you'd only get a subjective/intersubjective agreement, but certainly not an objective agreement. Just ax the slaver. He ain't tryna give up his slaves, bruh.
Not objective agreement.
That 'slavery morally wrong is an objective fact' just like other scientific fact, i.e. an objective moral fact [not of the philosophical realists' kind].
At present we only have an abductive inference as a hypothesis of this natural inherent impulse where no normal human would want to be enslaved by other humans. Note my post above.

Slavery [chattel] is thus categorically wrong but only as a principle and it cannot be enforceable on any individual by any external authorities.
Rather the individual[s] must trigger that moral impulse in them so that is it spontaneous, thus self-governing with autonomy [freedom] without any external enforcement.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:07 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:55 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:06 pm
What's your evidence of that?
As Henry had stated, it is intuitive for any normal person not to be 'owned' as a chattel and in total control by another human.
All that tells us is that the victims of slavery don't like it. It doesn't tell us it's wrong. Maybe we DO like having people around to serve us. Why should the victim's feelings be telling, but the enslaver's preferences disregarded? After all, the enslaver has at least one thing the enslaved does not: the power.
It is not only the victims, the majority intuit slavery [chattel] is 'wrong' thus chattel-slavery should not happen to any human.

Note it is very common to hear of those who had committed 'wrongs' who are well aware of what they have done is wrong but somehow compelled to do evil due to various known and unknown reasons. It is the same with the enslavers where for whatever the reason, their moral impulse on slavery is suppressed.

One obvious reason is due to theism where if their God promote or condone [with immutable command] chattel slavery, their natural impulse against chattel-slaver is thus suppressed even when intuitively as a human they intuit it is wrong.

So we have two issues here i.e.
1. the natural moral impulse that chattel slavery is wrong and
2. their inability to control their other impulses.

Btw, do you understand what are mirror neurons and how they work in humans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
It is obvious the consequences of chattel-slavery is terrible mental and physical sufferings to the slave.

For those who has sufficient active mirror neurons they will spontaneously feel the terrible pains of the slaves when they see, read or hear about chattel slavery as their mirror neurons automatically mirror, trigger and they'll share the same pain in themselves.
This is reinforced by their natural moral impulse against slavery which thus generate the inference that chattel slavery is morally wrong.
However the hypothesis is clearly supported by the trend of reduction in slavery [chattel] since humans started to enslave other humans, 50,000 or 10,000 years ago to the present.
That's actually a factually false claim.
Note again, it is chattel slavery.
Off hand, the reduction is very obvious.
Note the cases in Europe and the USA and other developed and developing countries where chattel slavery is illegal.
Is chattel slavery in the countries with the largest population, i.e. China and India legal? Chattel slavery was once legal in both countries, but its present illegality is contribute a significant % to the reduction.
Do you have evidences of cases [many to support your claim] anywhere at present where a case of the disputes in ownership of slaves are brought to any court?
There are more slaves in the world today than at any time in history.(https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/) So your argument now counts against you, if it counts at all.
Strawman!
The point is chattel-slavery not slavery in any other terms.
Surely you cannot deny the reducing trend in chattel slavery since human history to the present?
At present all sovereign nations has banned and enacted laws to make chattel-slavery illegal and punishable.
Again, not true. Sorry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_i ... st_century

Not all countries have banned slavery. In fact, it's perfectly legal in many. But even had every last one banished it, that would be a purely arbitrary choice on their part, unless you have some better reason to show that the law is actually right itself.
Strawman again!! Note Chattel Slavery.
OK it was hasty, I take back my earlier point.
What I had intended to state was all sovereign nations has ratified the UN Slavery Conventions, however some countries has yet to enact laws to ban and make chattel-slavery illegal and is punishable.

However, that we can get all nations to ratify the Slavery Convention itself is a great achievement within humanity without any help from theism.
My point is to demonstrate the significant historical trend of the activating of the natural impulse against chattel -slavery, and thus the potential to realize the end of chattel slavery [and other forms of slavery] in the future.

...various psychological and physiological tests can be done to test the hypothesis.
I call "bluff." Name the tests you think can do this. I don't believe there are any at all. Nor will anybody else, I'm thinking.
I did not state there are already tests done at present.
I stated it can be done.
If you have enough knowledge re the neurosciences, the potential of the Human Connectome Project, and other advance knowledge plus critically without theism to hinder your progress, then you will understand the potential possibilities.
Note I mentioned the basic Mirror Neurons and the other possible advanced tests in the future.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by reasonvemotion »

Modern African Americans still experience oppression to this day.

HQ
wrote:
that's what them community organizer-types say...yes, siree, they surely do say that

but it just ain't so.
Ha!

A White American's narcissism.
Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:53 am As usual you are 'immaturely' changing subject.
I'm changing context, that's all.

Every concept is a man-made idea, it's a fiction, in reality, nothing is free because nothing is enslaved.

Some people cannot handle that there are always two sides to the human story.

The concept known as ''slavery'' could not have been known without it's complimentary opposite. Both roles have to exist for the human fictional story to make any sense.

Reality is real, but what is not real are the ideas projected onto the real. In reality, in life, there is just what's happening, because what's happening, could not have been happening any other way. The concept known as 'slavery' could not have been known without the concept 'FREE'

Free, is always a movment FROM something else, it's a relative concept. As long as there is a ''fleeing'' from something else, which there is always and forever in the world of duality, then nothing is free, ever...but only in the story, the duality that is projection.

Mind is the knowledge of opposites. Only the mind is born not YOU. There is no YOU because there is no other than you.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:49 am ...the majority intuit slavery [chattel] is 'wrong' thus chattel-slavery should not happen to any human.
That's untrue, too. Maybe "the majority where you live" think that; but the majority, considered worldwide and throughout history, have not believed the same, and even today, many, many people are still practicing slavery...as you can see from the websites I sent you.

Moreover "I have an intuition that..." is not a sufficient reason to assure any skeptic that what you think you "intuit" is right or wrong.
One obvious reason is due to theism where if their God promote or condone [with immutable command] chattel slavery,

Well, you've got that wrong. There is neither commandment nor principle to enslave others in Theism, and in fact, the opposite.
It is obvious the consequences of chattel-slavery is terrible mental and physical sufferings to the slave.
The enslavers don't care. And you haven't given them any reason to do so.
Is chattel slavery in the countries with the largest population, i.e. China and India legal?
Not only legal...it's a government approved and general social practice. In China, it's the government that's the biggest enslaver.
There are more slaves in the world today than at any time in history.(https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/) So your argument now counts against you, if it counts at all.
Strawman!
The point is chattel-slavery not slavery in any other terms.
Go read the site: that IS chattel slavery.

You're just wrong about chattel slavery being something the majority "knows" is wrong. Statistically, that claim is false. But even were it so, it would only be Intuitionism again, and intuition isn't a reason to believe anything.
...various psychological and physiological tests can be done to test the hypothesis.
I call "bluff." Name the tests you think can do this. I don't believe there are any at all. Nor will anybody else, I'm thinking.
I did not state there are already tests done at present.
I stated it can be done.
If you say "it can be done," then you must know how it can be done. If you don't know how it can be done, then you have no basis to believe it can be done at all.

So what are the tests?
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

VA,

As Henry had stated, it is intuitive for any normal person not to be 'owned' as a chattel and in total control by another human.

not exactly, no

a man, like every other, any other man, knows he belongs to himself...he doesn't reason it, never has to be taught it, it's an intuition livin' in his bones

he surmises from this intuition that he ought not own another and another ought not own him

as I say: even the slaver, as he buys and sells men, understands this about himself and those he trades in...simply, the slaver is evil in his hypocrisy and in choosin' to ignore that which he knows (the property he sells and buys is not his, can never be his)

the trend of reduction in slavery [chattel] since humans started to enslave other humans, 50,000 or 10,000 years ago to the present.

in number, there are more slaves today than in the past, but as percentage of overall population, the trend is toward reduction, simply cuz, overall, there are more people alive

even so: the slaver industry is alive and well...30 to 40 million human beings treated and used as property...a small percentage of an overall population of nearly 8 billion but too many, too many by 30 to 40 million
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

A White American's narcissism.

nope: the accurate assessment of a fella, livin' in america, who's not easily hoodwinked

Yeah I get it....................it's not your problem.

the on-goin' slave industry is everyone's problem, especially since the most pernicious slavers work in, or influence those in, the halls of power

but: apologizin' for the sins and crimes of others, especially when I have not, do not, and will never, by choice, profit from those crimes and sins...yeah, I ain't doin' that
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:19 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:49 am ...the majority intuit slavery [chattel] is 'wrong' thus chattel-slavery should not happen to any human.
That's untrue, too. Maybe "the majority where you live" think that; but the majority, considered worldwide and throughout history, have not believed the same, and even today, many, many people are still practicing slavery...as you can see from the websites I sent you.

Moreover "I have an intuition that..." is not a sufficient reason to assure any skeptic that what you think you "intuit" is right or wrong.
Nah, the website is about 'forced labor' in its various forms but it is not about 'chattel' slavery where humans are traded as a property contractually.

The problem is there is no scientific evidence to prove 'slavery is an abhorrence' [evil, immoral] to the majority. I believe it is so obvious that no group has bothered to verify this thesis. I believe someday in the future it will be proven to be a scientific fact.
Despite the limitation I believe the intuition on this is a very strong one with high confidence levels.

You don't have "I have an intuition that..." chattel slavery is wrong?
Don't you have a reasonable "theory of mind" to understand the likely attitude of the majority towards slavery?
One obvious reason is due to theism where if their God promote or condone [with immutable command] chattel slavery,

Well, you've got that wrong. There is neither commandment nor principle to enslave others in Theism, and in fact, the opposite.
Yes, there are no direct commands by a God to enslave another human.
However the concept of 'slavery of humans' is promoted in Islam and [not condemned and an abhorrence] condoned in the Bible.
It is obvious the consequences of chattel-slavery is terrible mental and physical sufferings to the slave.
The enslavers don't care. And you haven't given them any reason to do so.
The practice of slavery and the consequences of sufferings are very obvious.
However, that the enslavers don't care do not mean they as human by default do not have the moral impulse against human slavery.
As I had stated and it is well known, many [except real psychopaths] criminals are aware of what they are doing is wrong but yet they are compelled somewhat to commit the crime or evil act.
Do you deny this to support your point?
Is chattel slavery in the countries with the largest population, i.e. China and India legal?
Not only legal...it's a government approved and general social practice. In China, it's the government that's the biggest enslaver.
This is a strawman.
At present, are there any government which establish and approve slave-markets trading in chattel slavery in China or anywhere in the world?
There are more slaves in the world today than at any time in history.(https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/) So your argument now counts against you, if it counts at all.
Strawman!
The point is chattel-slavery not slavery in any other terms.
Go read the site: that IS chattel slavery.
I have read that, it is all about 'forced labor' not about chattel slavery.

Read this to update your ignorance on this point re Chattel slavery;
Chattel slavery
As a social institution, chattel slavery denies the human agency of people, by legally dehumanising them into chattels (personal property) owned by the enslaver; therefore slaves give birth to slaves; the children of slaves are born enslaved, under legal doctrines, such as the 2100 BCE, Code of Ur-Nammu ("4. If a slave marries a slave, and that slave is set free, he does not leave the household. 5. If a slave marries a native [i.e. free] person, he/she is to hand the firstborn son over to his owner. ...") or 1662 CE partus sequitur ventrem ("That which is brought forth follows the womb").[16] Like livestock, they can be bought and sold at will.[17] Legally a chattel slave could be used sexually in any way her owner desired; females had no right to refuse, and in the Antebellum period in the United States many enslaved females were forced to become pregnant and give birth repeatedly, with no say about who impregnated them; their children were usually taken from them and sold, as if they were calves. (See children of the plantation for this practice in the United States.) While some form of slavery was common throughout human history, the specific notion of chattel slavery described above reached its modern extreme in the Americas.[18] Beginning in the 18th century an abolitionist movement saw slavery as a violation of everyone's right as a person ("all men are created equal"), and sought to abolish it. This movement was successful; the last Western country to abolish slavery, Brazil, did so in 1888.[19]
The last third-world country to abolish slavery, Mauritania, did not do so until 1981
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Chattel_slavery
Also note 'forced labor' is different from 'chattel slavery'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Forced_labour
You're just wrong about chattel slavery being something the majority "knows" is wrong. Statistically, that claim is false. But even were it so, it would only be Intuitionism again, and intuition isn't a reason to believe anything.
Note again,
The last third-world country to abolish slavery, Mauritania, did not do so until 1981
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Chattel_slavery
that imply 'chattel-slavery' is legally wrong.
The next stage is to enable the majority [& all normal humans] to attain the natural state that 'chattel-slavery' is morally wrong.
I call "bluff." Name the tests you think can do this. I don't believe there are any at all. Nor will anybody else, I'm thinking.
I did not state there are already tests done at present.
I stated it can be done.
If you say "it can be done," then you must know how it can be done. If you don't know how it can be done, then you have no basis to believe it can be done at all.
So what are the tests?
I believe I wrote it in one of the post, i.e.

1. Do a personal survey of ALL adults from the nearly 8 billion [normal] humans on Earth or at least 80% of them. This can be done given the current internet technology where the majority own a smartphone with or can access to an internet connection.

2. Do various neuro-psychological test using MRI or more sophisticated methods [potential in the future].
Currently the psychological tendency [sex, psychopathy, etc.] of a person can be tested using fMRI by showing them images, sounds, etc. and identify which part of the brain is activated which can 'crudely' denote the person's proclivities. Such test can be more refined and precise in the future with new technology.

3. As I had stated if you are well read in the neurosciences, neuro-psychology, and related matters, you will not doubt my proposals that such tests are possible in the future [based on current trend].
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

reasonvemotion wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:57 am 1) The descendants of captured slaves should be offered an apology.

2) White Americans were significantly advantaged by slavery while slaves struggled.

3) Modern African Americans still experience oppression to this day.
My own ideas, for what they are worth.

1) I do not think there will even be peace or perhaps the word is *satisfaction* between the formerly enslaved and that culture, and that 'history', that did that to them. For there is too strong, too developed, a narrative that decries and condemns enslavement, which must necessarily play itself out. That narrative is an armament, a weapon, as much as it is a tool. That is, in the *psychology* of human affairs the formerly enslaved need to find a way to do what was done to them; to see them reduced to the same condition; to observe them suffer; and to contribute, with a certain bit of glee, to that suffering. It is 'human, all too human'. I am referring here to ressentiment. I do not think it can be rationalized. The revenge-impulse is too powerful and I would also say that it is 'necessary'.

2) There is absolutely no doubt that English or European peoples and culture benefitted from the enslaved condition of Africans (speaking here of America). There is no way that *you* (anyone) will ever be able to get around this. It is a fundamental fact. Nor will you ever be able to get around the fact that when an enslaved people were freed -- and this is one part of the larger problem: American slaves were freed, they did not fight a war of liberation to free themselves, and in this sense their freedom was 'granted' to them, not earned by their own struggle -- that 'gift of freedom' was actually an extension, in certain ways, of their previous slavery. That is, none of this was chosen voluntarily. Neither to be enslaved nor to be freed from that condition to then be *given*, always with conditions, the possibility to participate in a civilization-project they did not choose, on any level nor at any point. This fact alone tremendously complexifies the profoundly restless psychological elements. If you examine some of the literature of the Civil Rights Era you will find that Black American struggle is a struggle for coherent identity in a sea of *identity* that was all -- all! -- determined by the people who oppressed them. So they struggle to define their own religion, to define their own relation to language, to social mores, but really when you examine it to define themselves within a historical process. Who am I? What is mine? What is genuinely mine? And what is genuinely not theirs? These distinctions became crucial.

The reality of African American struggle is not and I suggest could never be intelligible to Whites at the most basic level. It is something those Whites can *gaze on* and muse about. But only the one who has lived it can be said to understand it.

The more deeply that White Culture (again in America) tries to 'integrate' Black people, with their history, and their culture, is the degree to which the struggle to differentiate these two, will become more acute. Black Struggle would best have taken the form of an uprising and a Black National movement for 'liberation'. This would have been an impossibility I think on the American continent. But as I have thought it through it really would have been necessary. Remember as well that Abe Lincoln, the Great Liberator (to indicate astounding hypocrisy in its uniquely American form) worked for years behind the scenes to locate a place where former slaves could be shipped off to. The Chiriqui region of Panama was one but others were contemplated. What would have happened had this been carried out?

3) But the other fact here is -- and this is extremely hard to see as well as to broach, in any form -- is that Black Americans owe their being, their present shape, their selves as creations of culture within the English-American context, to their condition of slavery! and to be forced to labor in the 'Empire of the white man's will'. Think about it. It is that which brought them here. It is that which molded them. And that process, that historical reality, of being a molded people, a conquered and enslaved people who were then, though a perverted generosity, granted their freedom (which was not freedom at all but another level of subjugation if one looks at it through the lens I am presenting) is the source of insuperable conflict -- unless perhaps you are Thomas Sowell!

It is not that they are still *oppressed*, it is that no matter how the situation is looked at they are not in a world that they created. Their *oppression* is actually something far larger. History was their oppressor. At some point it is no longer a personal issue.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

American slaves were freed, they did not fight a war of liberation to free themselves, and in this sense their freedom was 'granted' to them, not earned by their own struggle

bingo

⭐️ observation

the shame eats at them: they, as you say, need to find a way to do what was done to them; to see (their adversary) reduced to the same condition; to observe them suffer; and to contribute, with a certain bit of glee, to that suffering

as I say: there's no middle ground to be had

turn them away: if they will not go, end them
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