What is 'freedom'?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am veg,

You are from the deep south. The bible belt. Do you really think you would have thought this way if you were living in the 1850s?

yep

lots of folks, in 1850, in the deep south bible belt, opposed slavery becuz they recognized and respected a man self-possesses

and today, all over the modern, enlightened, world, there are lots of folks who enslave others: it's an industry
Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons. You are only interested in yourself. Yes, I'm sure there were a few enlightened, compassionate souls in the South, but 'enlightened' is not a word that springs to mind when it comes to you. And the attitude at the time was that black people weren't actually human, therefore having them as slaves was perfectly acceptable.

You would have been whipping those slaves harder than anyone :lol:
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)
There's that blast of hot air again :lol: Why would I want some do-gooder to 'fight' for me when he doesn't give a flying rat's turd about me? How patronising. You sound about as deep and genuine as a wokie. You have no substance (so the wokie comparison is particularly apt).
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RCSaunders
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by RCSaunders »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean? The 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery?
The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
\
Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

In the article, "Freedom Not For Everyone," I explained how slavery is put over and preferred by most people and why they hate freedom:
How Slavery Is Put Over

It's not called slavery, it's called, "social order," when individuals are forced to comply with rules made by some for the benefit of others. It begins small. It's only a little oppression, but it's, "for a good cause," but once a principle is violated, whatever the justification, there is never a limit to that violation. Once freedom is violated, there is no end of the restrictions and demands on one's choices and life that will follow.

What begins as, "we cannot allow people to starve," ends as, "we cannot allow people to be uneducated, not have good housing, be poor in their old age, not have health care, not have a job, not be protected from scurrilous marketers, not be "safe" on the highway, business, homes, bathrooms, or ... (supply your favorite thing no one should have to go without, whether they earn it or not). You can have all of these things and more, at least until the slaves who are supplying them realize they are slaves; you can have them, but you cannot have them and freedom too.

The Price Of Freedom

The price of freedom is not having all those things. It is the price most are unwilling to pay. It means not having the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income. It means not being guaranteed no one will ever say something mean to or about you. It means there are no guarantees. It means you will live in a world of danger, temptation, and risks. It means you will be responsible for every aspect of your own life from the time you reach adulthood until you die. It means, if you mess up your life, you and only you will suffer the consequences.

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:22 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)
There's that blast of hot air again :lol: Why would I want some do-gooder to 'fight' for me when he doesn't give a flying rat's turd about me? How patronising. You sound about as deep and genuine as a wokie. You have no substance (so the wokie comparison is particularly apt).
translation: I wouldn't help you, Henry, so I don't believe you'd help me
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

that's not my experience: not with family, friends, or the wider community

parasites get the press (cuz they make the most noise) but they aren't representative of man
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

goof finished

here, enjoy some wisdom...
ED3C4FE7-4BBD-4743-B247-F01A3F6ACF9F.jpeg
ED3C4FE7-4BBD-4743-B247-F01A3F6ACF9F.jpeg (112.19 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).
I don't think everyone is aware of the inherent natural human law in its full range, else we would not have that much of evil in the world since history till the present and will continue in the future [if no moral progress is improved].

In the case of slavery, we agree.

However there is a full range of the inherent natural human law [to be self-governed] which I don't think you are aware of.

Another point, even if some people are aware of the inherent natural human laws, they are not in a psychological state to exercise it spontaneously in a self-governed [not coerced from externally] manner.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:41 pm In short, freedom to x, or with respect to x, is the ability to make a choice about x.

So, freedom of religion, for example, means that one is able to choose what religion to worship or not, including choosing no religion at all.
I posted earlier, freedom is the ability to make 'informed' choice about x.

Firstly there is no absolute freedom in reality.
Whatever the freedom, it must be overridden by morality & ethics.
Dontaskme
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)

Are you consistently fighting right now in realtime as we speak to free those who are wrongly enslaved from their rights to be free from slavery?

Are you able to inform us now, of how you are fighting slavery?
Dontaskme
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

That is the price of freedom. The price most people are not willing to pay.

Very good point. The price is too high anyway. The price will cost you your life, and no one wants to die. No one wants the story that is their life to come to an end. They want the story. They want the drama, and there is no drama without a player. We are only ever watching our own show. No one need to show up to their own show by opposing what is there own show at all times.

Freedom from slavery is based on a personal whim and not for any other system. As for the master of the slave, it doesn't exist without it's counterpart, so in effect, it's a symbiotic relationship that is mutally arising and cannot be avoided, or arise in any other way.

In reality, nothing is free because nothing is enslaved, and some more mature minds retreat to that line of thinking where they are able to adapt to any living condition they are subjected to. It happens all the time in nature, where animals are not free to wander where they please that they might stumble upon the wrong place where they are vulnerable to attack and be eaten. Animals just know what to avoid and what is favorable condition as and through evolutions intelligence. Animals do not know they are free or enslaved they are just living as nature does naturally.

In other words, to be an alive human being is to accept that sometimes you have to play the role of insanity in order to stay sane.

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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.
When you STOP have such a NARROWED VIEW, then you will be ABLE to SEE what thee ACTUAL Truth IS.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).
Age
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am veg,

You are from the deep south. The bible belt. Do you really think you would have thought this way if you were living in the 1850s?

yep
LOL
LOL
LOL

Talk about absolutely NO 'self-awareness' AT ALL. But do NOT feel to ALONE here, ALL of 'you' "others" here have NO more self-awareness than you do here "henry quirk".

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am lots of folks, in 1850, in the deep south bible belt, opposed slavery becuz they recognized and respected a man self-possesses

and today, all over the modern, enlightened, world, there are lots of folks who enslave others: it's an industry
Age
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:54 am age,

WHO are 'you', and WHAT is your purpose, on this planet?

none of your bee's wax
That is 'it', RUN and HIDE instead of being OPEN and Honest.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:54 am But 'you', "henry quirk", are "allowed" to BLOW AWAY the bodies of "others", whenever you BELIEVE you can, correct?

nope
So, I or ANY one else can enter "your home", in the middle of the night, and touch "your stuff", and you do NOT BELIEVE you are ALLOWED to BLOW our bodies AWAY, correct?
Dontaskme
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.

People fear losing freedom of power.

In reality, there is no opposition. Love has no opposite. Love is the only power. To be in opposition to power is to lose power and to live in fear. . which is Fake Evidence Appearing Real..because Love is never faked, it's absolutely self-evident, it's the peace that passes all understanding.


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