What is 'freedom'?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Dontaskme
Posts: 12749
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom can mean many things...but ultimately, freedom is more frequently known in the context that is a movement away FROM something that would be considered undesirable...which can be a multitude of things.

As long as we are in a perpetual state of having to move away FROM an undesirable, we are never actually free.

The only true freedom I can think of is to just allow everything to happen to you without resistence or fear, that would be the only freedom, but while you are aware of yourself, you will always try to protect and defend that self from harms way. So no freedom in that context.
Age
Posts: 10976
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:40 am "Freedom" in the human sense is "autonomy."

Autonomy: In developmental psychology and moral, political, and bioethical philosophy, autonomy [note 1] is the capacity to make an informed, uncoerced decision.
Wiki

Note1: autonomy: Ancient Greek: αὐτονομία, romanized: autonomia, from αὐτόνομος, autonomos, from αὐτο- auto- "self" and νόμος nomos, "law", hence when combined understood to mean "one who gives oneself one's own law" -Wiki
This will be ANOTHER ONE, which will fit in PERFECTLY with the upcoming 'Self-governing society' that is about to come to fruition.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:40 am However, one's own law must be in alignment with the universal moral law of absolute good. It cannot be arbitrary and subject to one's whims.
WHY MUST one's own law align with universal law of absolute good? And, who are 'you' to TELL 'us' what MUST be done?

Also, one's own law CAN be arbitrary and subject to one's whims. Just LOOK AT just about EVERY law MADE UP by 'you', human beings, to SEE thee ACTUAL PROOF of this. Which, by the way, just about ALL of them do NOT align AT ALL with the universal law of absolute good anyway.

Would it be a MUCH BETTER 'world' if EVERY one's OWN arbitrary law aligned with PERFECTLY with the universal moral law of absolutely good or just What is Right in Life? then that is, literally, ANOTHER QUESTION.
Age
Posts: 10976
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:00 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:38 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:31 am Hey, don't worry about my extremisms and idiosyncrasies: this question is for you; it's about what you think...

Why is slavery wrong?
Why do you assume I think it's 'wrong'?
I know it's wrong. A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Whether this universal feature reflects a moral reality or is just some evolutionary trait is irrelevant. What is relevant is no human being craves enslavement. Freedom (self-directing, self-relying, bein' self-responsible) is as necessary to us, as individuals, as food, water, and air.
WHY is 'your' 'freedom' here NECESSARY to an individual as food, water, and air ARE?

Oh, and by the way, the way to arrive at ALL 'universal features in relation morality', 'moral realities', or to 'What is, just plain old, Right and Wrong in Life' is accomplished in just about the same way that you have come to KNOW, for sure, and IRREFUTABLY what you know here is Wrong.

Which, as I have been SAYING ALL ALONG, is VERY SIMPLE and EASY, indeed. As you may well ALREADY KNOW.
Age
Posts: 10976
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:20 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:40 am "Freedom" in the human sense is "autonomy."

Autonomy: In developmental psychology and moral, political, and bioethical philosophy, autonomy [note 1] is the capacity to make an informed, uncoerced decision.
Wiki

Note1: autonomy: Ancient Greek: αὐτονομία, romanized: autonomia, from αὐτόνομος, autonomos, from αὐτο- auto- "self" and νόμος nomos, "law", hence when combined understood to mean "one who gives oneself one's own law" -Wiki

*However, one's own law must be in alignment with the universal moral law of absolute good. It cannot be arbitrary and subject to one's whims.
I think that's where natural law comes in: I belong to me, you belong to you; we're each free to do, or attempt to do, as we choose as long as we recognize we have no claim on each other.
Well how come I am NOT 'free' to do, or attempt to do, as I choose WITHOUT 'you' having A CLAIM on 'me'?

WHY do 'you', "henry quirk", get to be able to OVERRIDE your OWN made up "rule" or "law" here.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:20 am In other words: your life, liberty, and property are yours and I ought to recognize and respect that, and vicea versa.
So, WHY do you NOT recognize NOR respect 'this' "yourself", "henry quirk"?

Oh, and by the way, HOW MANY TIMES am I going to ask these CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, BEFORE you ACTUALLY CLARIFY?
Age
Posts: 10976
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:54 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:20 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:40 am "Freedom" in the human sense is "autonomy."

Autonomy: In developmental psychology and moral, political, and bioethical philosophy, autonomy [note 1] is the capacity to make an informed, uncoerced decision.
Wiki

Note1: autonomy: Ancient Greek: αὐτονομία, romanized: autonomia, from αὐτόνομος, autonomos, from αὐτο- auto- "self" and νόμος nomos, "law", hence when combined understood to mean "one who gives oneself one's own law" -Wiki

*However, one's own law must be in alignment with the universal moral law of absolute good. It cannot be arbitrary and subject to one's whims.
I think that's where natural law comes in: I belong to me, you belong to you; we're each free to do, or attempt to do, as we choose as long as we recognize we have no claim on each other.

In other words: your life, liberty, and property are yours and I ought to recognize and respect that, and vicea versa.
What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.
When one FULLY UNDERSTANDS WHY EVERY one of 'you', adult human beings, is NOT aligned to the the One universal moral law of absolute good, then that one CAN and DOES 'respect' WHY ALL of 'you' are NOT in alignment with 'it'.

Oh, and by the way, 'you', "veritas aequitas", are one of the ones who is the MOST NOT aligned with the One universal moral law of absolute good. Just in case 'you' were wondering how you were faring in list of aligning.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:54 am The question is what is this the universal moral law of absolute good about and how can it be spontaneous within the person, which is very complicated.
LOL This is NOT very complicated AT ALL. In fact this is ALL VERY SIMPLE INDEED.

And, the One universal moral law of absolute good IS ALREADY WITHIN ALL of 'you', human beings. In fact you were CLOSEST to 'it' at about birth. And, 'it' comes back to be 'spontaneous' REALIZATION and CONSCIOUSNESS WHEN one learns how to LOOK AT and SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they ARE.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:54 am I won't go into a detailed discussion of it here.
WHY NOT?
Age
Posts: 10976
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:12 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom can mean many things...but ultimately, freedom is more frequently known in the context that is a movement away FROM something that would be considered undesirable...which can be a multitude of things.

As long as we are in a perpetual state of having to move away FROM an undesirable, we are never actually free.
If 'freedom' is in relation to movement away FROM some 'thing', then that means that one is NOT ACTUALLY 'FREE'.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:12 am The only true freedom I can think of is to just allow everything to happen to you without resistence or fear, that would be the only freedom, but while you are aware of yourself, you will always try to protect and defend that self from harms way. So no freedom in that context.
But thee True Self can NOT be 'harmed' in ANY way, EVER. So, there is absolutely NOTHING 'I' 'defend' Thy Self FROM.
Walker
Posts: 10288
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
For humans, ultimate freedom is a state of mind independent from conditions.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13396
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13396
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

veg,

You are from the deep south. The bible belt. Do you really think you would have thought this way if you were living in the 1850s?

yep

lots of folks, in 1850, in the deep south bible belt, opposed slavery becuz they recognized and respected a man self-possesses

and today, all over the modern, enlightened, world, there are lots of folks who enslave others: it's an industry
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13396
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

age,

WHO are 'you', and WHAT is your purpose, on this planet?

none of your bee's wax

But 'you', "henry quirk", are "allowed" to BLOW AWAY the bodies of "others", whenever you BELIEVE you can, correct?

nope
Dontaskme
Posts: 12749
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).
Image
Dontaskme
Posts: 12749
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:54 am age,

WHO are 'you', and WHAT is your purpose, on this planet?

none of your bee's wax

Age wouldn't believe or disbelieve your answer anyway.

So brain fart away, it's your own business, and no one elses business except for those who have their nose in it. In other words always smell your own shit, and mind your own business, because the job is never finished until the paper work is done. Those who make a mess are the only ones responsible for the clean up operation.

:D
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Terrapin Station »

In short, freedom to x, or with respect to x, is the ability to make a choice about x.

So, freedom of religion, for example, means that one is able to choose what religion to worship or not, including choosing no religion at all.
Walker
Posts: 10288
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Walker »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).
- That supports the obvious fact that people everywhere have an inherent resistance against being a cog in a machine.
- However, many folks are cogs, and gratefully so. After all, the alternative existence appears to be that of a diseased moose standing alone on the frozen tundra, just waiting to die. (just kidding)
- Evidence suggests that many people in many nations prefer to be a cog. Prefer to be a part of something bigger than a personal self, and thus be bigger than a personal self. Be all you can be, join the army. It rhymes.

- What is the evidence for this discrepancy between human nature and the comfort of cogdom?

Mental discrepancy causes mental conflict.
Mental conflict is a form of mental violence.
Mental violence turned outward is voice violence and physical violence.

Sounds about right. Plenty of people are mean and nasty and many cities burn in the summertime.

Conclusion: Civilization is a thin veil.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13396
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

- That supports the obvious fact that people everywhere have an inherent resistance against being a cog in a machine.
- However, many folks are cogs, and gratefully so. After all, the alternative existence appears to be that of a diseased moose standing alone on the frozen tundra, just waiting to die. (just kidding)
- Evidence suggests that many people in many nations prefer to be a cog. Prefer to be a part of something bigger than a personal self, and thus be bigger than a personal self. Be all you can be, join the army. It rhymes.

- What is the evidence for this discrepancy between human nature and the comfort of cogdom?


it's marketing: plain and simple

tell a man, upfront, he'll be leashed, branded, and directed, and he'll balk

but...
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:28 pm If prisons were luxurious estates, where your every need was catered to and you could indulge your hobbies and interests (or not, as you so choose) in a safe and beautiful environment then I don't think many humans would object to being there. Heck, we even call the people who actually live like that 'privileged'.
no one wants coghood, but they'll accept it if it's marketed just right
Post Reply