What is 'freedom'?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

The egomaniac Damian Aspinall is a good example of human conceit and belief that they know 'what's best' for other animals, while the animals themselves don't have a clue. Those gorillas made it quite clear that they didn't want to be dumped in the jungle to fend for themselves any more than any human animal would want to be. The result? They were all murdered.

You only have to look at dogs and cats to know that they prefer the 'cage' of home comforts to the 'freedom' of misery and an early death.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 pm freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose... - Joplin

-Imp
Not her words. Kris Kristofferson wrote that song.
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Have you heard of a DICTIONARY? What does 'dictionary' even mean, to you?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm The 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery?
Did you mean 'without' instead of 'with'?

Either way the word 'freedom' has NO relation AT ALL to 'that'.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals.
What 'you', human beings, "see" is NOT ALWAYS what thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' IS, and this is MORE SO for 'you', older human beings.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
A new born, of ANY animal species, just ACCEPTS its environment.

When I was a younger child I would have MUCH PREFERRED to have been so-called "dumped" in the jungle than be where I was.

But, absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. And, what the observer "sees" (and/or does NOT 'see') depends SOLELY on past experiences.

So, OF COURSE, it might be true that a so-called and alleged "happy" gorilla might not want to be "dumped" in the jungle AFTER being raised by some who LOVED it, this gorilla could have been just as so-called "happy" if it was LEFT in the jungle with its OWN RELATIONS, from birth.

In other words, the variables are just to many and varied to be able to arrive at ANY conclusive answer.

Oh, and by the way, 'freedom' can mean or refer to 'being FREE', as in being absolutely FREE to do absolutely ANY thing one CHOOSES to do.

'Free will' after all could mean or refer to just having 'the ABILITY to CHOOSE'.

So, 'freedom' could be very closely related to 'free will'.
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:03 am The egomaniac Damian Aspinall is a good example of human conceit and belief that they know 'what's best' for other animals, while the animals themselves don't have a clue. Those gorillas made it quite clear that they didn't want to be dumped in the jungle to fend for themselves any more than any human animal would want to be. The result? They were all murdered.

You only have to look at dogs and cats to know that they prefer the 'cage' of home comforts to the 'freedom' of misery and an early death.
Never heard of him.


Live Free And Die does apply to animals.

Live Free Or Die does apply to humans.

And. Or. Big difference.

An animal dies an animal’s death, in fear and ignorance.
The best a human can do for a pet is ease both fear and ignorance at the appropriate time, if possible.

A human dies a human death, ‘though the body may continue on to do animal impressions, such as bark like a dog.

*

As an aside, I read an interesting tabloid story of a child who meowed to a substitute teacher because the child identified as a cat. The teacher asked the child where she kept her litter box. When the child ran from the room upset from being mis-identified, the teacher barked. If not true, it's still a funny story ... given the way things are.
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----
LOL 'you', "henry quirk", ARE 'a slave' and 'follow orders' more than you even realize.

But, if you want to BELIEVE that you do not 'follow orders', then please feel 'FREE' to continue on doing so.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Age »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:03 am The egomaniac Damian Aspinall is a good example of human conceit and belief that they know 'what's best' for other animals, while the animals themselves don't have a clue. Those gorillas made it quite clear that they didn't want to be dumped in the jungle to fend for themselves any more than any human animal would want to be. The result? They were all murdered.
Who was all murdered?

Hopefully, it was the ones who put the human being reared gorillas into the jungle, and who then did not rescue the gorillas when the gorillas were obviously not going to make it in the jungle?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:03 am You only have to look at dogs and cats to know that they prefer the 'cage' of home comforts to the 'freedom' of misery and an early death.
But cats AND dogs do NOT know ANY thing about future misery NOR of ANY future early death.

In fact even 'you', human beings, do not even KNOW ANY future 'early death'.

If one put a 'bowl of food and water' everyday, with all the comforts of the human home, in the jungle for a cat or dog, then I am pretty sure a lot of cats and dogs would MUCH PREFER the freedom of living a 'living jungle', then living within the confines of human build home walls and fenced yards.
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Walker wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:05 amLive Free And Die does apply to animals.

Live Free Or Die does apply to humans.

And. Or. Big difference.

An animal dies an animal’s death, in fear and ignorance.
The best a human can do for a pet is ease both fear and ignorance at the appropriate time, if possible.

A human dies a human death, ‘though the body may continue on to do animal impressions, such as bark like a dog.
👍

Walker wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:05 am As an aside, I read an interesting tabloid story of a child who meowed to a substitute teacher because the child identified as a cat. The teacher asked the child where she kept her litter box. When the child ran from the room upset from being mis-identified, the teacher barked. If not true, it's still a funny story ... given the way things are.
teacher shoulda sprayed the lil darling with a water bottle: cats hate gettin' spritzed
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Age wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:29 am if you want to BELIEVE that you do not 'follow orders', then please feel 'FREE' to continue on doing so.
where's my water bottle...
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by simplicity »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.
The wisdom that [should] arrive with maturity shifts people from the child-perspective [that it's about about themselves] to the adult-perspective [where it is about taking responsibility]. Unfortunately we live in an era where a great percentage of children never grow-up.
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:02 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.
The wisdom that [should] arrive with maturity shifts people from the child-perspective [that it's about about themselves] to the adult-perspective [where it is about taking responsibility]. Unfortunately we live in an era where a great percentage of children never grow-up.
simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:08 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Walker »

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Last edited by Walker on Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
simplicity
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by simplicity »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:13 pm simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
Ah...this is what your life's work is about.

Everybody must peel the layers back and get to their core...to find out who they are and what their purpose is on this planet.
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:27 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:13 pm simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
Ah...this is what your life's work is about.

Everybody must peel the layers back and get to their core...to find out who they are and what their purpose is on this planet.
Done that: livin' that life right now.

👍
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:02 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.
The wisdom that [should] arrive with maturity shifts people from the child-perspective [that it's about about themselves] to the adult-perspective [where it is about taking responsibility]. Unfortunately we live in an era where a great percentage of children never grow-up.
Exactly. A 'certain poster' on here clearly never matured emotionally past the age of 12. It's all 'me me me' with him, and no fore(or in)sight whatsoever.
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henry quirk
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Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:51 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:02 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm

Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.
The wisdom that [should] arrive with maturity shifts people from the child-perspective [that it's about about themselves] to the adult-perspective [where it is about taking responsibility]. Unfortunately we live in an era where a great percentage of children never grow-up.
Exactly. A 'certain poster' on here clearly never matured emotionally past the age of 12. It's all 'me me me' with him, and no fore(or in)sight whatsoever.
same as everyone else, includin' you
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