What is 'freedom'?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 11167
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

What does 'freedom' even mean? The 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery?
The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pmThe 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery? The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 11167
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pmThe 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery? The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
Evidence? I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry. You are full of crap.
simplicity
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by simplicity »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 11167
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.
Impenitent
Posts: 3791
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Impenitent »

freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose... - Joplin

-Imp
Dubious
Posts: 3130
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dubious »

simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Doing what one must is not freedom, which normally allows for a limited number of choices. Based on whatever circumstance, a "must" mandate allows for only one action. Where's the freedom in that. There is also the damned if I do and damned if I don't variety which forces one to make a choice when you'd rather not have that option. In life, as it appears to me, freedom is an island in a sea of necessity.

But maybe you meant something else by it.
Dubious
Posts: 3130
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dubious »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.
Dubious
Posts: 3130
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by Dubious »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.
Oh, don't soak your shorts! I take it all back...except what I said!

If he didn't recognize it as a cage he wouldn't be attacking it from the inside to get the hell out.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:58 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm

The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.
Oh, don't soak your shorts! I take it all back...except what I said!

If he didn't recognize it as a cage he wouldn't be attacking it from the inside to get the hell out.
hey! veg! duh-duh-duh-dubious is contradictin' you!

better put him in place
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

anyway, since the question is gettin' lost among the manure, let me steer the thread clear of the patties and back on track...
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 11167
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
I said 'well run, empathetic zoos'. They don't have cages these days. A gorilla is not going to be any happier in a cage than a human would be. And I'm talking 'literal' cage here, not some euphemism that you've concocted.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:46 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
I said 'well run, empathetic zoos'. They don't have cages these days. A gorilla is not going to be any happier in a cage than a human would be.
yes, they live in naturalistic enclosures: sounds like a cage to me
Post Reply