Therefore, those who are NOT BELIEVERS that the Universe IS EXPANDING KNOW that transferring the position of earth and human beings to EVERY or ANY other position of the Universe implies that their position is NOT exceptional, which therefore MEANS that what is happening and occurring around the position of earth and human beings is the EXACT SAME throughout the Universe. Which is 'blue shift' EXISTS, with 'red shift' ALSO EXISTING.uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pm
See, those who do NOT ALREADY HAVE A BELIEF here LOOK AT the WHOLE PICTURE and NOT just some of IT, like you do.
See, 'we' LOOK AT and DISCUSS BOTH blue and red shift, whereas 'you' and the other BELIEVERS will only LOOK AT and DISCUSS red shift, and then CLAIM that is ALL the, so called, "evidence" we NEED for the BELIEF that the Universe IS EXPANDING. Which is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of CONFIRMATION BIASES, at its BEST.
The BELIEVERS of an EXPANDING Universe are behaving EXACTLY like the BELIEVERS of a GEOCENTRIC Universe did. That is; ONLY LOOK AT a SMALL PART and PICTURE of the Universe, instead of the WHOLE and BIG PICTURE.
You make me laugh "uwot" EVERY time you use the word 'evidence' here. You say it as though it is ACTUAL 'evidence' for an expanding Universe, as thought the Universe IS ACTUALLY EXPANDING.uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pm
You STILL can NOT YET SEE that you have GAINED the BELIEF that the Universe IS EXPANDING, like ALL of those "others" have, and then CLAIM that there is ACTUAL 'evidence' for AN EXPANDING Universe.
If you STILL can NOT YET SEE and UNDERSTAND that OBSERVING lines shift to red on photographic material is "evidence" for an EXPANDING Universe HYPOTHESIS ONLY, then you would STILL NOT YET have RECOGNIZED that this IS the EXACT SAME phenomena occurring as OBSERVING the sun revolved around the earth was the "evidence" for a GEOCENTRIC Universe ASSUMPTION (hypothesis) ONLY.
However, BOTH of those OBSERVATIONS were NOT ACTUAL 'evidence' for what was BEING CLAIMED. They were BOTH just ACTUAL 'evidence' for the HYPOTHESIS or ASSUMPTIONS.
The can be a HUGE DIFFERENCE between hypothesis/assumption and thee ACTUAL Truth of things. As has ALREADY been PROVED absolutely True countless times ALREADY.
Also, the FACT that 'evidence' is NOT ACTUAL 'proof' is ANOTHER BIG thing, which NEEDS to be LOOK AT and REMEMBERED here in regards to what is being DISCUSSED here.
As I have ALREADY OUTLINED, EVERY thing being discussed here is ALL depended upon how EACH one of 'us' is defining the word 'Universe', and UNTIL that is brought to light, absolutely EVERY thing that has been said here could just be plain old MOOT, anyway.
I do NOT DISAGREE that some of 'you', human beings, MAKE UP ASSUMPTIONS and HYPOTHESIS'S, based on SOME ACTUAL OBSERVATION, so having ACTUAL 'evidence' for some ASSUMPTION/HYPOTHESIS is 'normal'. But what is also normal is the FACT that a hypothesis/assumption is NOT necessarily even close to thee ACTUAL Truth of things. And, as I have ALREADY INFORMED you, I ONLY LOOK AT and DISCUSS 'that' what is ACTUALLY True and REAL.
I do NOT do BELIEFS (other than of thy Self and Its abilities). I do NOT want to do ASSUMPTIONS/GUESSES/THEORIES/HYPOTHESIS or ANY OTHER PRESUMPTION, and I do NOT do DEBATES.
I MUCH PREFER to just LOOK AT and DISCUSS what is ACTUALLY True and REAL ONLY.
LOLuwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pmIf your many proofs cannot change anyone's beliefs, they are not proofs.
If ONLY you KNEW just how hilarious this comment ACTUALLY IS.
As HAS ALREADY been PROVED True I do NOT SHARE 'proofs' with those who BELIEVE otherwise.
I have ALREADY INFORMED that 'proofs' can NOT change BELIEFS, WHILE the BELIEF IS EXISTING.
And, just like the sun revolved around the earth BELIEF was CHANGED with 'proofs' the ACTUAL amount of time that takes is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT for EVERY one. The less strongly some thing is be BELIEVED and the less a BELIEF is being held onto, then the QUICKER that BELIEF is CHANGED, and conversely the stronger a BELIEF IS and the stronger that BELIEF is being held onto, the harder and longer it is to CHANGE, not matter how much ACTUAL 'proof' EXISTS and IS PRESENTED.
For ACTUAL PROOF that even ACTUAL 'proof' itself can NOT CHANGE a BELIEF, whilst the BELIEF is being MAINTAINED, then just LOOK AT the flat earth BELIEF.
So, YOUR CLAIM that if one's many proofs cannot change ANY one's beliefs, then they are NOT proofs, is EXTREMELY HILARIOUS, well to me anyway.
However, I TOTALLY AGREE with you that that ACTUAL 'proofs', which OBVIOUSLY can NOT be REFUTED, by ANY one, can be DISPUTED, by EVERY one, and as such and so are NOT, so called, "proofs" to those people IN DISPUTE. But, OF COURSE, 'proofs' exist on their OWN as IRREFUTABLY True.
Also, let us NOT FORGET that I have been asking for just 'evidence' that the Universe IS EXPANDING, by those who BELIEVE that the Universe IS EXPANDING, which OBVIOUSLY has NOT YET BEEN PROVIDED, let alone that when and IF that EVER comes to light, then I will be requesting ACTUAL PROOF, Itself.
A GREAT EXAMPLE you have PROVIDED and USED here, and one that I would have ALSO.uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pmThe way to find out how the universe actually behaves is to watch it. Any hypothesis about what the universe actually is really needs to be consistent with the observations. It was consistent with the observations that the earth was at the centre of the universe until the invention of the telescope gave us a set of new observations which meant we had to change our ideas.
So, this brings us back to EXACTLY WHY I continually ask the question, WHY even ASSUME and/or BELIEVE some thing is true BEFORE CLARIFICATION is even GAINED?
Or, WHY just MAKE UP ANY hypothesis, theory, guess, or assumption about what the Universe ACTUALLY is?
Especially when one can just LOOK AT 'It' (OBSERVE 'It') and SEE and KNOW what It ACTUALLY IS almost instantly, AND always?
Also, do NOT FORGET that ANY hypothesis about what the Universe actually is, which you claim "really needs to be consistent with the observations", does in NO WAY necessarily confer with what thee Universe REALLY and Truly ACTUALLY IS.
See, what the Universe ACTUALLY IS is NOT earth centered, NOT expanding, and NOT beginning. As can be CLEARLY OBSERVED and WITNESSED.
One just has to LOOK through and from thee (Truly OPEN) Mind, and NOT through and from the (Truly LIMITED) human brain, to OBSERVE and SEE this FACT.
Also, the reasons WHY the Universe ONLY APPEARS to be earth centered, expanding, and beginning becomes also instantly SEEN, KNOWN, and WELL or FULLY UNDERSTOOD when LOOKING AT or OBSERVING this through and from Thee Mind.
Once again, I will suggest LOOKING AT 'things' through and from the (Truly ALWAYS OPEN) Mind FIRST, and only then LOOKING from and through the already gained thoughts, which were obtained from that one single bodies experiences. Instead of the OTHER WAY AROUND when 'things' are mostly LOOKED AT through and from the brain, and thinking, FIRST, and usually ALWAYS and ONLY in the adult population of human beings.
As can be CLEARLY evidenced and PROVEN in the above, or the preexisting, writings, throughout human history.
If there was NO difference, then there would be NO DISAGREEMENT among 'you', human beings. That is, if what ANY one observe is just what they observe, was ACTUALLY what there ONLY IS, then EVERY one would be IN AGREEMENT. And OBVIOUSLY there is, NOT YET, AGREEMENT.
So, OBVIOUSLY, what 'you' and "others" are 'observing' is either DIFFERENT or the EXACT SAME.
And REMEMBER it is 'I' who has been CLEARLY STATING that there is ONLY One ACTUAL Truth of things, which can be CLEARLY SEEN and FULLY UNDERSTOOD, and VERY QUICKLY, VERY SIMPLY, and VERY EASILY, by the way, by EACH and EVERY one, and which ALL new borns are ACTUALLY OBSERVING and SEEING. But, which 'you', adult human beings, twist and distort with and because of your ALREADY GAINED preexisting learning, which 'you' then individually turn into ASSUMPTIONS and/or BELIEFS about what is true and right in the 'world', of which then TWISTS and DISTORTS 'you' from being able to CLEARLY SEE and RECOGNIZE what thee ACTUAL Truth of things REALLY IS.
When 'you', adult human beings, are Truly OPEN and Honest about the WRONG that 'you' ALL DO, and Truly WANT to CHANGE for the better, then 'you' WILL learn WHY 'you' are the way you ARE, and then you will START discovering and/or learning HOW to start SEEING/OBSERVING and RECOGNIZING things for what they Truly ARE.
Until then 'you' will carry on ASSUMING and BELIEVING what you do, while I await patiently for those who are Truly OPEN and Truly CURIOS to learning MORE and ANEW.
So, HOW EXACTLY is that ANY DIFFERENT from what I was ACTUALLY SAYING and MEANING? What were you PRESUMING I was SAYING AND MEANING?uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pmNo Age. What people observed was the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. It looks like the sun is moving, and because we don't feel any of our motion through space, most people believed that the earth is stationary.
The point was 'we' all KNOW how that OBSERVATION went. It was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is ACTUALLY True, Right, REAL, Accurate, AND Correct.
Just like the OBSERVATION of an "expanding and beginning" Universe is NOT True, NOT Right, NOT REAL, NOT Accurate, NOR Correct.
People in 'your' days observe some colored lines on photographic material, which the BEST EXPLANATION that they can come up with is, the WHOLE of the Universe IS EXPANDING, which also, and "coincidentally", just happens to help explain the EXTREMELY OLD IDEA, which has been present within the human psyche for millennia, the the Universe ACTUALLY BEGAN.
I will AGAIN suggest, just rid yourselves of ABSOLUTELY ANY preconceived ideas, and then just LOOK AT what IS from thee Truly OPEN perspective, then what is OBSERVED ONLY is thee ACTUAL Truth of things.
See, 'you', human beings, in the days of when this is being written, have the COMPLETE and UTTER ADVANTAGE over ALL other previous human beings that language and words have evolved as far as they have to be able to order words in such a way that ALL-OF-THIS can be ordered in such a way that EVERY thing can be EXPLAINED in VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY terms, so that the Universe, Itself, and EVERY thing within IT can be FULLY UNDERSTOOD, relative to what was previously understood, and relative to helping ABSOLUTELY in the IMPROVING and SPEEDING UP EXPONENTIALLY of being ABLE TO discover, learn, and understand NEW and MORE things.
KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING the answers to ALL of the MEANINGFUL or PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS as well as WHAT and HOW thee Universe, Itself IS and WORKS, leads to an absolutely phenomenal improved rate and increase in DISCOVERING and LEARNING ALL the other things to be able to order and create the way of life, which 'we' ALL Truly WANT to live in and DESIRE.
AND, just like ABSOLUTELY EVERY THING ELSE within the Universe, Itself, and thee ACTUAL Universe, Itself 'it really, and literally, ALL depends on what 'you' MEAN by the words 'you' USE, including the word 'you'.
Absolutely EVERY thing is DEPENDED UPON on 'you' and the way 'you' DEFINE 'things', or, in other words, it ALL depends on the way 'you' LOOK AT and SEE 'things'.
In saying this, however, OF COURSE, there is One True Thing/REALITY, which EXISTS EXACTLY how It DOES and IS. But, EVERY 'thing' else is ALL depended upon 'you' and the way 'you' LOOK AT and SEE 'things'.
BUT, they would NOT have been Wrong, in the beginning, IF they did NOT make up ASSUMPTIONS, to start with.
AGAIN, WHY do 'you', adult human beings, FEEL the NEED to MAKE UP ASSUMPTIONS?
When OBVIOUSLY there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO, and ESPECIALLY when they could just be False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, to begin with?
Well, by DEFINITION, WHILE ANY human being is playing the "scientist" role, which EVERY human being plays or does at times, then they would, for those given moments, NOT be asking the "philosophical" questions. This was just a given anyway, CORRECT?
By the way, the "philosopher" role is ALWAYS BEING PLAYED, this role, however, is just far more to the forefront in some than in "others". And, in some adult human beings this "role" is lying "dormant" so far in the background that it NEVER comes to the forefront.
And LOL you are SO TRUE in that some and even "many scientists" WILL simply use a a formula that produces EXACTLY the results , which they WANTED, in the beginning. Which is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of CONFIRMATION BIASES, that you have just PROVIDED.
Also, YOUR CLAIM that "many scientists refuse to commit to ANY interpretation" completely MISSES THE MARK in relation to the FACT that the CLAIM that "red shift is 'evidence' for an expanding Universe' is, in itself, JUST AN INTERPRETATION, ONLY.
Red shift is just the name given to lines when they appear MORE red. Now, what these red lines are ACTUALLY 'evidence' FOR EXACTLY is ALWAYS 'JUST and INTERPRETATION', Itself.
There could well be OTHER REASONS WHY there is red shift in those lines on photographic material, which 'you', human beings, have NOT YET EVEN CONSIDERED, and this could FACT could last for hundreds, thousands, or even millions of more years, in not forever more.
Now, most of 'us' are IN AGREEMENT that 'red shift' COULD mean that SOME galaxies are receding away from the human being observer/s, on earth. While SOME people BELIEVE that that these galaxies are moving away from earth is EXACTLY what is happening. Either way EVERY one, if Truly OPEN would ADMIT that that 'thought/view' that THOSE galaxies are moving away from earth is JUST AN INTERPRETATION, and, NOT YET ANYWAY, a proven irrefutable FACT.
And, while 'I' am one of those who AGREE that 'red shift' is 'evidence' for the 'idea' that SOME galaxies are moving or receding away from earth, 'I' also have NOT YET OBSERVED how this is 'evidence' for the 'idea' that the Universe, Itself, is expanding.
And UNTIL ANY ACTUAL 'evidence' for this 'idea' is PROVIDED, what 'I' ACTUALLY OBSERVE seems to be far MORE LIKELY to be ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct.
But 'red shift' is NOT ACTUAL EVIDENCE that the Universe, Itself IS EXPANDING. The 'IDEA' that the Universe IS EXPANDING is SOLELY based on the BELIEF that 'red shift' (red lines on photographic material) is ACTUAL EVIDENCE, for that IDEA/HYPOTHESIS.uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pmRed shift. What is your evidence that the universe did not have a beginning and that it is not expanding?Age wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 amAll I have ESSENTIALLY said here is: The Universe did NOT begin NOR is It expanding, while asking for those who say and BELIEVE that the Universe is expanding to back up and support this with some ACTUAL 'evidence' for THEIR CLAIM.
NONE of these BELIEVERS have OBVIOUSLY provided ANY ACTUAL 'evidence' AT ALL.
This is just CIRCULAR REASONING.
Also, I have asked you that IF 'red shift' is MEANT TO BE ACTUAL EVIDENCE for an expanding Universe, which you CLAIM it is, THEN what is 'blue shift' MEANT TO BE ACTUAL EVIDENCE FOR, EXACTLY?
You have FAILED COMPLETELY to PROVIDE what 'blue shift' is meant to be ACTUAL EVIDENCE FOR, because of the OBVIOUS following consequences, to you.