Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:44 pm In my view, materialism/physicalism is clearly the case.
Then Determinism has to be the case. "Materials" or "physics" are not conscious, intelligent, volitional entities. Human beings then become nothing but the byproduct of impersonal forces.
Re "appealing to quantum fluctuations etc." the point there is SOLELY that the standard view in the sciences doesn't support that determinism is the case.
But it does. In fact, it absolutely necessitates Determinism.

All an appeal to quantum fluctuations adds to the situation is that we can no longer KNOW what impersonal forces are creating the illusion of personal volition; it doesn't mean that personal volition is anything more than a rather odd, inexplicable and causally-irrelevant byproduct of the determining quantum forces. Human choice is still not real.

The quantum strategy thus may confuse the thinker, especially if he mistakes his own no longer knowing for some sort of denial of the facts, of Determinism; but that actually does not change the equation when it comes to Determinism.

As the video points out, there's still no causally-relevant place for consciousness, identity, choice and the human in such a universe. Indeed, it's arguably a WORSE universe for volition than the old Materialist/Physicalist one. :shock:
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:00 pm Then Determinism has to be the case. "Materials" or "physics" are not conscious, intelligent, volitional entities. Human beings then become nothing but the byproduct of impersonal forces.
I don't understand what the mental block is to understanding that one can believe that everything is physical/material but that it's not the case that all events occur so that there's only one possible consequent state to any antecedent state.

What is difficult to understand about that?
But it does. In fact, it absolutely necessitates Determinism.
Sigh. The standard model of quantum physics is that it's not deterministic. It's probabilistic with more than one consequent state being able to follow immediately preceding antecedent states.
All an appeal to quantum fluctuations adds to the situation is that we can no longer KNOW what impersonal forces are creating the illusion of personal volition;
What I'm typing above has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with free will.

Forget about free will for a moment. Try to understand ONLY what I typed above.

What I typed above needs to be understood first. It's figuring out how to crawl before we learn how to skateboard. If we haven't tackled crawling yet, we can't worry about skateboarding.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:00 pm Then Determinism has to be the case. "Materials" or "physics" are not conscious, intelligent, volitional entities. Human beings then become nothing but the byproduct of impersonal forces.
I don't understand what the mental block is to understanding that one can believe that everything is physical/material but that it's not the case that all events occur so that there's only one possible consequent state to any antecedent state.

What is difficult to understand about that?
It's not difficult to understand that there could be more than one possibility in a system governed by probability instead of singular inevitability. But there are two ways this explanation falls short of allowing for free will.

The first is that only one state WILL be instantiated, so thought we mere humans can no longer can reliably predict which it will be, there still will be no choice involved in which state is instantiated. What will be, will be...and we're back to Determinism, albeit with additional confusion as to how the real causes do operate.

Secondly, probability is not a personal agency. Just as "materials" or "physics" do not have an opinion about what state is to be instantiated, so to "probability" itself has no such opinions and does not make a choice. It just blindly does what it blindly does.

To be tyrannized by probability is not better than to be tyrannized by inevitability. Either way, choice, the volitional, the personal, the human is utterly excluded from the chain of "real" explanations for why things end up as they do.
But it does. In fact, it absolutely necessitates Determinism.
Sigh.
No, not *sigh.*

We need to attend to this point: it's the crucial one. For free will, there is no effective difference between inevitability and probability. Both exclude human decisions as causal agents. We're still victims of an impersonal causal chain...or if you prefer, of an impersonal probabilistic web. But we're still caught in the chain or the web.

And it's free will that matters in this particular discussion. It's the first two words in the OP, in fact.
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henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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if an antecedent state A has possible immediately consequent states B and C, so that we're talking about ontological freedom in that situation, it's NOT necessarily the case that B and C each have a equal, 50% chance of occurring.

That ain't freedom or free will or bein' free: that's just a coin flip.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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The standard model of quantum physics is that it's not deterministic. It's probabilistic with more than one consequent state being able to follow immediately preceding antecedent states.

All that means is: instead of A -> B it's A -> B (or B1 or B2).

We call it probabilistic cuz we don't know what condition-changes in A move A to B, B1, or B2. Not knowin' the condition-change, however, doesn't make that change any less determined (causally) than A -> B.

It's causal determinism in a dress.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 pm That ain't freedom or free will or bein' free: that's just a coin flip.
Yeah. 👍

What Henry said.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:00 pm Then Determinism has to be the case. "Materials" or "physics" are not conscious, intelligent, volitional entities. Human beings then become nothing but the byproduct of impersonal forces.
I don't understand what the mental block is to understanding that one can believe that everything is physical/material but that it's not the case that all events occur so that there's only one possible consequent state to any antecedent state.

What is difficult to understand about that?
It's not difficult to understand that there could be more than one possibility in a system governed by probability instead of singular inevitability. But there are two ways this explanation falls short of allowing for free will.
What happened to "What I'm typing above has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with free will."

Wouldn't this be an easier conversation if you'd actually pay attention to what I'm saying?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 pm if an antecedent state A has possible immediately consequent states B and C, so that we're talking about ontological freedom in that situation, it's NOT necessarily the case that B and C each have a equal, 50% chance of occurring.

That ain't freedom or free will or bein' free: that's just a coin flip.
Coin flips are ideally equiprobable, no?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:19 pm What happened to "What I'm typing above has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with free will."
Well, if I believe you about that, then you weren't even addressing the topic of the OP. But the point is that Determinism ALWAYS has serious implications for free will, and these are the most important things about Determinism, in fact.

How would we ever think that it made no difference to free will whether or not free will was even possible? :shock:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:19 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 pm if an antecedent state A has possible immediately consequent states B and C, so that we're talking about ontological freedom in that situation, it's NOT necessarily the case that B and C each have a equal, 50% chance of occurring.

That ain't freedom or free will or bein' free: that's just a coin flip.
Coin flips are ideally equiprobable, no?
Yes, but heads and tails are random. Which one turns up is entirely independent of choice. In fact, that's the reason we play the coin-toss: it's a means of eliminating the power of either party's choice, not of letting somebody's choice make the decision.

That's what makes that procedure "fair": nobody's volition is favoured.
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Janoah
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Janoah »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will
free from what?
from the laws of nature - not free.
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henry quirk
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enjoy this picture (instead of a premature posting)

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henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Janoah wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will
free from what?
from the laws of nature - not free.
Not free from but free to.

Free to start, bend, and end causal chains.

Free to step away from the domino line.

Free to deny an appetite, an impulse, an imperative, an instinct.

Free to reason out my own reasons for doin' this instead of that.
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henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:19 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 pm if an antecedent state A has possible immediately consequent states B and C, so that we're talking about ontological freedom in that situation, it's NOT necessarily the case that B and C each have a equal, 50% chance of occurring.

That ain't freedom or free will or bein' free: that's just a coin flip.
Coin flips are ideally equiprobable, no?
Sure, but what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Not seen' how a coin flip is connected to ontological freedom.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:21 pm Well, if I believe you about that, then you weren't even addressing the topic of the OP.
Correct. Honestly, I very rarely even pay any attention to what thread I'm posting in. (After I post something, the way I use the board is that I primarily look for notifications, and I don't really care what thread any post is in for that.)

As I said, in this case we need to sort out some very basic, relatively simple issues first. Didn't you read that comment about needing to crawl before we try to skateboard?

If we're not crawling in my opinion, and you keep jumping straight to trying to skateboard, I'm just going to wind up annoyed, because we just can't do the latter until we take care of the more basic stuff first. Forget about whatever the thread is, whatever the initial post was.
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