Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 11228
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

edited for accuracy

Post by henry quirk »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.

I'm not sure what the above means, so I'll translate (probably wrongly)...

Determinism and free will do not contradict one another.

Yeah, they do. If *cause and effect holds then **libertarian agent causation cannot exist.

Thing is: I know I'm an agent (not an event); I also know cause and effect holds.

A conundrum.




*the heart of determinism...a domino universe

**the only free will worth havin'
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:39 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.
It's simple: materialism doesn't imply determinism.
point taken

however, I've never met a strict materialist who wasn't also a determinist

and: I shoulda left strict out...really, a materialist is a materialist

another self-correction: perhaps what I mean is physicalist, not materialist
I'm a materialist/physicalist who isn't a determinist.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 11228
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by henry quirk »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:54 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:39 pm
It's simple: materialism doesn't imply determinism.
point taken

however, I've never met a strict materialist who wasn't also a determinist

and: I shoulda left strict out...really, a materialist is a materialist

another self-correction: perhaps what I mean is physicalist, not materialist
I'm a materialist/physicalist who isn't a determinist.
Then you're the first I've met...hello!
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 12268
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:54 pm I'm a materialist/physicalist who isn't a determinist.
Then you're the first I've met...hello!
Okay, now I'm super-interested.

How the heck do you manage that, TS? Seems to me, at least at first glance, that Materialism automatically implies Determinism.

Can there be another way?
owl of Minerva
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by owl of Minerva »

I agree with the original premise that determinism and free will both exist and that free will can emerge out of determinism: determinism in nature, free will in humans. If nature was not determined humans would have a very unstable environment to operate in, if it could exist at all. As it is, the laws of nature give stability; a stable background, and humans learn through their mistakes.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 7230
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:08 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:45 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:00 am

Some could also just as easily say and argue that this discussion cannot go any further until you define what the words 'free will' and 'determinism' are, to 'you'.

Oh, and by the way, one definition for the word 'proof', is - the action of establishing the truth of a statement.
That is one definition, what are the others?
Those, which are given by 'you', human beings.

And, did you really want, or expect, me to look in EVERY dictionary, in EVERY different language, for ALL the other definitions?

I suggest if you REALLY want to know the other definitions for the word 'proof', then you look for them "yourself".
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:45 pm If there are multiple definitions of proof then proof equivocates to a variety of things. Dually how does one act in establishing truth?
How does the word 'dually' apply here accurately?

If there is multiple definitions for words, as there OBVIOUSLY IS, then this in NO WAY infers NOR means what you PRESUME the answer is here.

How one does establish truth is just by agreement and acceptance. It REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE and EASY. just like Life, Itself, IS.

And, just so you are FULLY AWARE I, sometimes, do write in a way to separate those who are CURIOS from those who just make ASSUMPTIONS instead.
If truth is determined by agreement an acceptance then multiple groups of agreement means multiple truths on one hand, in another hand it means someone must agree with you to be right.

Third it necessitates truth as existing in parts if truth is determined by agreement of various individuals.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 7230
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:13 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:00 pm There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.
No. You're just making that up. That's not a dispute between anyone in philosophy.
If partial determinism occurs, which is disputed, then determinism occurs through grades.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 7230
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.

I'm not sure what the above means, so I'll translate (probably wrongly)...

Determinism and free will do not contradict one another.

Yeah, they do. If *cause and effect holds then **libertarian agent causation cannot exist.

Thing is: I know I'm an agent (not an event); I also know cause and effect holds.

A conundrum.

There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.




*the heart of determinism...a domino universe

**the only free will worth havin'
All being is free relative to Nothingness as this freedom of being occurs given it is appearing from nothing. Freedom occurs as an act of being, being purely acts when it emerges from nothing.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 11228
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by henry quirk »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.

I'm not sure what the above means, so I'll translate (probably wrongly)...

Determinism and free will do not contradict one another.

Yeah, they do. If *cause and effect holds then **libertarian agent causation cannot exist.

Thing is: I know I'm an agent (not an event); I also know cause and effect holds.

A conundrum.

There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.




*the heart of determinism...a domino universe

**the only free will worth havin'
All being is free relative to Nothingness as this freedom of being occurs given it is appearing from nothing. Freedom occurs as an act of being, being purely acts when it emerges from nothing.
I'm not sure what being instead of not-being has to do with it.

An amoeba exists but I wouldn't say it's free or free willed.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 7230
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:49 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.

I'm not sure what the above means, so I'll translate (probably wrongly)...

Determinism and free will do not contradict one another.

Yeah, they do. If *cause and effect holds then **libertarian agent causation cannot exist.

Thing is: I know I'm an agent (not an event); I also know cause and effect holds.

A conundrum.

There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.




*the heart of determinism...a domino universe

**the only free will worth havin'
All being is free relative to Nothingness as this freedom of being occurs given it is appearing from nothing. Freedom occurs as an act of being, being purely acts when it emerges from nothing.
I'm not sure what being instead of not-being has to do with it.

An amoeba exists but I wouldn't say it's free or free willed.
Freedom occurs through being.

Non being is an absence of freedom as it is nothing, not even being.

All being in contrast to Nothingness is free as freedom exists as part of this being. It exists as part of this being given the totality of being, in contrast to nothing, contains within it an element of freedom.

This element of freedom is the ability to move, an absence of being is an absence of the ability to move thus is absent of freedom.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:22 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:54 pm I'm a materialist/physicalist who isn't a determinist.
Then you're the first I've met...hello!
Okay, now I'm super-interested.

How the heck do you manage that, TS? Seems to me, at least at first glance, that Materialism automatically implies Determinism.

Can there be another way?
I'm not sure why it's so common to think that materialism or physicalism implies determinism. Are they teaching folks this in school or something? If so, they're skipping telling you about phenomena that are standardly thought to be (ontologically) indeterminstic--namely quantum and stochastic phenomena.

But even aside from the standard view, one need not be a realist on physical laws in general in order to be a materialist or physicalist.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 12268
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:33 pm ...phenomena that are standardly thought to be (ontologically) indeterminstic--namely quantum and stochastic phenomena.
Well, that's interesting.

Now, here is my question about that. I can claim no great originality, but this seems to me to be the right response. (The video is only 3 min. or so long.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4arOKZvuZK4

"Random swerving in a chaotic system," he says.

So how would you respond to that?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:33 pm ...phenomena that are standardly thought to be (ontologically) indeterminstic--namely quantum and stochastic phenomena.
Well, that's interesting.

Now, here is my question about that. I can claim no great originality, but this seems to me to be the right response. (The video is only 3 min. or so long.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4arOKZvuZK4

"Random swerving in a chaotic system," he says.

So how would you respond to that?
So, the first thing he's missing is this:

If it's a fact that quantum phenomena are not deterministic, then "Determinism is the case/everything is determined by physical laws" is false, and we can't use "determinism is the case/everything is determined by physical laws" either as an argument against free will or as a general world view (even outside of the context of free will discussions).

We can move to how free will might work later, but the first thing to realize here is that science does NOT in fact suggest that determinism is true. So we should stop pretending that it does suggest that.

That's step one.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 12268
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:56 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4arOKZvuZK4

"Random swerving in a chaotic system," he says.

So how would you respond to that?
So, the first thing he's missing is this:

If it's a fact that quantum phenomena are not deterministic, then "Determinism is the case/everything is determined by physical laws" is false,
But now we have to substitute, "Everything is determined by quantum events."

We still have Determinism. Only the master has changed, but the slavery remains as absolute. There's still no free will possible. :shock:

I think that's the point the speaker in the video is drawing out: the quantum explanation does not solve the problem.

How do you think free will becomes more possible, or more coherent as an idea, under quantum predetermination than under conventional Materialist predetermination?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:47 pm But now we have to substitute, "Everything is determined by quantum events."
Not at all. Just because one thing is one way, it doesn't mean that everything else is the same way.

The point is simply that "determinism is the case" is false. Determinism being the doctrine that every single thing is determined so that there's really only one consequent possibility from any antecedent state.

If determinism is false, then we can't fall back on determinism to argue that there's no free will, that materialism/physicalism suggest there's no free will, etc. We have to accept that determinism is false and something else is the case when it comes to at least some phenomena--that at least some phenomena are not determined. (Then it's a matter of figuring out what phenomena are not determined, how those phenomena work instead, etc.)
We still have Determinism.
Again, no. Determinism is the view that for all phenomena, from any antecedent state, the world is such that via causality, there's really only one possible consequent state. It turns out (at least as best as we can tell at the moment, and this is the standard view in the sciences), that that's not the case.
I think that's the point the speaker in the video is drawing out: the quantum explanation does not solve the problem.
Again, the first step--and this should sound like we're talking about the 12-step program for alcoholism, haha--is to admit that determinism isn't the case, and science suggests no such thing. We need to conquer that first step, and then we can move on to the next steps.
Post Reply