Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:32 pm And if only part of reality is deterministic then
Then we're not talking about determinism.

Determinism is the view that ALL phenomena are deterministic.

If that's not the view, we're not talking about determinism.
Yet the cause and effect chain which results from a choice is deterministic....A leads to B which leads to C.
Sure. That just has nothing to do with what "determinist/determinism" refers to as a philosophical stance.

This is because no one is arguing that NO phenomena are deterministic. The dispute is rather over whether all phenomena are deterministic versus whether some phenomena are not deterministic. There are many people who argue each side there. (And then there are some people who supposedly argue that those two stances are compatible, but lots of us don't see how that could make sense.)
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:22 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:20 am

EVERY 'action' required a previous action.

To me, however, an act of 'free will' does NOT "require" ANY thing. However, from EVERY act of 'free will' a further action, naturally, occurs, anyway.



Your words here, AGAIN, are NOT helping 'me', at all, understand 'you' better. For example, from the very first word of your sentence I have ABSOLUTELY NO idea NOR clue as to what you are referring to NOT meaning.

Was just using thee ACTUAL word that the word "it" here was referring instead of using the 'it' word REALLY to hard to do?

Or, did you NOT use 'that word' for some other reason?

If yes, then what was that reason, EXACTLY?



IF 'you' EVER get around to EXPLAINING what 'free will' is, to 'you', then 'we' can START LOOKING AT and DISCUSSING 'this'.

Until then what 'you' are talking about and/or referring to here, ONLY 'you' KNOW.



LOL There is NO dispute that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. So, 'you' do NOT need to keep 'trying to' argue for this conclusion.

What 'you' NEED to do, from my perspective, is just SHOW and PROVE how 'you' arrived at that conclusion, in a logically reasoned way. So far, 'you' have NOT YET.

Also, what I was putting forward, through a clarifying question, was; HAS 'free will' ALWAYS coexisted with 'determinism', or, did 'free' will' come to exist, somewhere along the evolutionary line of 'things'?

I suggest STOP 'trying to' argue that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. To me, I think this is irrefutable anyway. Instead I suggest you START LOOKING AT the ACTUAL QUESTIONS I am putting forward, to you, and then just Honestly responding to them, ONLY. That way 'you' will then ACTUALLY find, and thus obtain, thee ACTUAL PROOF, which you are 'trying to' SHOW here.
You want proof but you do not define proof thus leading your version of proof to be open ended subjective interpretation.
Has ANY one here asked me to define 'proof'?

If yes, then who and when?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm You want interpretations that fit your already held assumptions and beliefs.
LOL This statement is a COMPLETE DISTORTION as well as being OBVIOUSLY False, and so is just BEYOND A JOKE, especially considering what I have ACTUALLY been saying and CLEARLY POINTING OUT.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm 1. Free will is an action. Action builds upon action thus necessitating free will as part of a cause and effect chain.

2. "It" references all of being. Free will emerges as part of the totality of being as in looking at the totality of being free will is part of it strictly because we are discussing it. This discussion is part of the totality of being thus necessitating we are observing free will as a phenomenon.

3. Free will is change initiated through the "I".

4. The proof of free will existing is the fact we are observing it through a conversation. It cannot be an illusion as an illusion implies deception and deception requires a choice between truth and falsity.

The proof if determinism is the fact that one action precedes another, one action builds upon another.

The proof that they coexist is that if everything is determined then this conversation of free will, hence of the observation of free will, determines free will existing as a phenomenon. If free will exists a series of actions build upon the prior actions chosen, much in the same manner we chose to discuss free will and a series of thoughts (ie actions) build upon prior thoughts (actions).

5. Free will has always existed along determinism given the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them given intelligence is pattern manipulation. Evolution is pattern variation thus is synonymous to determinism. This pattern variation necessitates a universal intelligence.
You have concluded some things, which may be ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct. However, you are NOT YET able to explain how 'you' arrived at such a conclusion.

For example what evidence or proof do you have for your claim that; "the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them", or for your other claim that; "given intelligence is pattern manipulation"?

Besides the fact that that this is just circular, like saying; "the tree is green", "given trees are green", you have NOT shown ANY proof for your claim that 'intelligence' is pattern manipulation to begin with. For all we know 'pattern manipulation' could just be particle interaction, which may have absolutely nothing at all to do with intelligence.
This discussion cannot go any further until you define what proof is.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:25 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:02 pm

Then we're not talking about determinism.

Determinism is the view that ALL phenomena are deterministic.

If that's not the view, we're not talking about determinism.
Yet the cause and effect chain which results from a choice is deterministic....A leads to B which leads to C.
Sure. That just has nothing to do with what "determinist/determinism" refers to as a philosophical stance.

This is because no one is arguing that NO phenomena are deterministic. The dispute is rather over whether all phenomena are deterministic versus whether some phenomena are not deterministic. There are many people who argue each side there. (And then there are some people who supposedly argue that those two stances are compatible, but lots of us don't see how that could make sense.)
There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.

Determinism is observed in grades. One cannot prove all is deterministic as all of reality extends beyond the senses.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:25 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:02 pm

Then we're not talking about determinism.

Determinism is the view that ALL phenomena are deterministic.

If that's not the view, we're not talking about determinism.
Yet the cause and effect chain which results from a choice is deterministic....A leads to B which leads to C.
Sure. That just has nothing to do with what "determinist/determinism" refers to as a philosophical stance.

This is because no one is arguing that NO phenomena are deterministic. The dispute is rather over whether all phenomena are deterministic versus whether some phenomena are not deterministic. There are many people who argue each side there. (And then there are some people who supposedly argue that those two stances are compatible, but lots of us don't see how that could make sense.)
There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.

Determinism is observed in grades. One cannot prove all is deterministic as all of reality extends beyond the senses.

Dually all phenomenon as emergent from void necessitates all phenomena as fundamentally free. This freedom is derived from its emergence from and back to void. Considering consciousness is the manipulation of form, and all forms are manipulated through change, all phenomenon as deterministic (ie one leading to another) are grounded in an underlying intelligence thus are an expression of free will. Complete determinism and complete free will coexist through the emergence of a phenomenon from nothing.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:00 pm There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.
Not in the standard usage of the term in a philosophical context.

Otherwise give me a reference for that.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:25 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:02 pm

Then we're not talking about determinism.

Determinism is the view that ALL phenomena are deterministic.

If that's not the view, we're not talking about determinism.
Yet the cause and effect chain which results from a choice is deterministic....A leads to B which leads to C.
Sure. That just has nothing to do with what "determinist/determinism" refers to as a philosophical stance.

This is because no one is arguing that NO phenomena are deterministic. The dispute is rather over whether all phenomena are deterministic versus whether some phenomena are not deterministic. There are many people who argue each side there. (And then there are some people who supposedly argue that those two stances are compatible, but lots of us don't see how that could make sense.)
The reason WHY you can not SEE how the two are ACTUALLY compabatible is because you BELIEVE that they NEVER could be, as well as because you will NOT ask clarifying questions. And, the reason WHY you do NOT ask clarifying questions is, again, because of your currently held BELIEFS.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:57 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:22 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm

You want proof but you do not define proof thus leading your version of proof to be open ended subjective interpretation.
Has ANY one here asked me to define 'proof'?

If yes, then who and when?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm You want interpretations that fit your already held assumptions and beliefs.
LOL This statement is a COMPLETE DISTORTION as well as being OBVIOUSLY False, and so is just BEYOND A JOKE, especially considering what I have ACTUALLY been saying and CLEARLY POINTING OUT.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:02 pm 1. Free will is an action. Action builds upon action thus necessitating free will as part of a cause and effect chain.

2. "It" references all of being. Free will emerges as part of the totality of being as in looking at the totality of being free will is part of it strictly because we are discussing it. This discussion is part of the totality of being thus necessitating we are observing free will as a phenomenon.

3. Free will is change initiated through the "I".

4. The proof of free will existing is the fact we are observing it through a conversation. It cannot be an illusion as an illusion implies deception and deception requires a choice between truth and falsity.

The proof if determinism is the fact that one action precedes another, one action builds upon another.

The proof that they coexist is that if everything is determined then this conversation of free will, hence of the observation of free will, determines free will existing as a phenomenon. If free will exists a series of actions build upon the prior actions chosen, much in the same manner we chose to discuss free will and a series of thoughts (ie actions) build upon prior thoughts (actions).

5. Free will has always existed along determinism given the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them given intelligence is pattern manipulation. Evolution is pattern variation thus is synonymous to determinism. This pattern variation necessitates a universal intelligence.
You have concluded some things, which may be ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct. However, you are NOT YET able to explain how 'you' arrived at such a conclusion.

For example what evidence or proof do you have for your claim that; "the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them", or for your other claim that; "given intelligence is pattern manipulation"?

Besides the fact that that this is just circular, like saying; "the tree is green", "given trees are green", you have NOT shown ANY proof for your claim that 'intelligence' is pattern manipulation to begin with. For all we know 'pattern manipulation' could just be particle interaction, which may have absolutely nothing at all to do with intelligence.
This discussion cannot go any further until you define what proof is.
Some could also just as easily say and argue that this discussion cannot go any further until you define what the words 'free will' and 'determinism' are, to 'you'.

Oh, and by the way, one definition for the word 'proof', is - the action of establishing the truth of a statement.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:00 pm There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.
Not in the standard usage of the term in a philosophical context.

Otherwise give me a reference for that.
Word or what decides the, so called, "standard usage" of terms in a 'philosophical' context?

Considering the FACT that 'you', adult human beings, can NOT YET, collectively, even decide what the word 'philosophy' means, let alone what a 'philosophical context' is exactly, perceiving that there is a "standard usage" of terms seems pretty fanciful.

Also, if the usage that you have provided here is BELIEVED to be the "standard usage", then this itself explains WHY 'you', adult human beings, STILL have NOT YET worked out what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, regarding this VERY SIMPLE issue/discussion here.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:02 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:00 pm There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.
Not in the standard usage of the term in a philosophical context.

Otherwise give me a reference for that.
Bandwagon fallacy, group agreement does not determine what is defined or is not defined.

Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:57 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:22 am

Has ANY one here asked me to define 'proof'?

If yes, then who and when?



LOL This statement is a COMPLETE DISTORTION as well as being OBVIOUSLY False, and so is just BEYOND A JOKE, especially considering what I have ACTUALLY been saying and CLEARLY POINTING OUT.


You have concluded some things, which may be ABSOLUTELY True, Right, and Correct. However, you are NOT YET able to explain how 'you' arrived at such a conclusion.

For example what evidence or proof do you have for your claim that; "the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them", or for your other claim that; "given intelligence is pattern manipulation"?

Besides the fact that that this is just circular, like saying; "the tree is green", "given trees are green", you have NOT shown ANY proof for your claim that 'intelligence' is pattern manipulation to begin with. For all we know 'pattern manipulation' could just be particle interaction, which may have absolutely nothing at all to do with intelligence.
This discussion cannot go any further until you define what proof is.
Some could also just as easily say and argue that this discussion cannot go any further until you define what the words 'free will' and 'determinism' are, to 'you'.

Oh, and by the way, one definition for the word 'proof', is - the action of establishing the truth of a statement.
That is one definition, what are the others? If there are multiple definitions of proof then proof equivocates to a variety of things. Dually how does one act in establishing truth?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:45 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:57 pm

This discussion cannot go any further until you define what proof is.
Some could also just as easily say and argue that this discussion cannot go any further until you define what the words 'free will' and 'determinism' are, to 'you'.

Oh, and by the way, one definition for the word 'proof', is - the action of establishing the truth of a statement.
That is one definition, what are the others?
Those, which are given by 'you', human beings.

And, did you really want, or expect, me to look in EVERY dictionary, in EVERY different language, for ALL the other definitions?

I suggest if you REALLY want to know the other definitions for the word 'proof', then you look for them "yourself".
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:45 pm If there are multiple definitions of proof then proof equivocates to a variety of things. Dually how does one act in establishing truth?
How does the word 'dually' apply here accurately?

If there is multiple definitions for words, as there OBVIOUSLY IS, then this in NO WAY infers NOR means what you PRESUME the answer is here.

How one does establish truth is just by agreement and acceptance. It REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE and EASY. just like Life, Itself, IS.

And, just so you are FULLY AWARE I, sometimes, do write in a way to separate those who are CURIOS from those who just make ASSUMPTIONS instead.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:00 pm There are grades of determinism where determinism may not exist for all phenomenon but exist as all of a context.
No. You're just making that up. That's not a dispute between anyone in philosophy.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by henry quirk »

Total determinism and total free will do not contradict given in contrast to void all being is free as existing.

I'm not sure what the above means, so I'll translate (probably wrongly)...

Determinism and free will do not contradict one another.

Yeah, they do. If *cause and effect holds then **libertarian agent causation cannot exist.

Thing is: I know I'm an agent (not an event); I also know cause and effect holds.

A conundrum.

There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.




*the heart of determinism...a domino universe

**the only free will worth havin'
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.
It's simple: materialism doesn't imply determinism.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by henry quirk »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:39 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm There's no way for the strict materialist to square the circle.
It's simple: materialism doesn't imply determinism.
point taken

however, I've never met a strict materialist who wasn't also a determinist

and: I shoulda left strict out...really, a materialist is a materialist

another self-correction: perhaps what I mean is physicalist, not materialist
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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