Hermeneutics: Applications?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
Nope. I said nothing like "My perceptions never have attendant concepts."

I said, "Do you not agree that we can perceive things without applying concepts, without assigning names for those things, etc."

"Can" is not "always do."
I was not focus on without assigning names for those things, etc. but rather on the "applying concepts".
Whenever a person perceive anything the application of concepts is spontaneous.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:32 am
Whenever a person perceive anything the application of concepts is spontaneous.
First off, this is contrary to the definition of "perception" that you just supplied.
Skepdick
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
Nope. I said nothing like "My perceptions never have attendant concepts."

I said, "Do you not agree that we can perceive things without applying concepts, without assigning names for those things, etc."

"Can" is not "always do."
And yet... you apply the name/label/concept of "thing".

Apparently your sense-data is individuated/categorized into "things" when your awareness gets hold of it. Total bullshit.

How many things are in this photo?

Image
Skepdick
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Skepdick »

commonsense wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:41 pm I see.

It seems to me that if (& only if?) VA can legitimately claim that the abstraction explains the reality, and that his logic is correct, then he would have a stronger, if not compelling, argument.
The word "reality" is an abstraction!

If it describes/connotes what you expect it to describe/connote then you have been compelled.
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by commonsense »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:05 am
Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
Read your post again.
The above contradicts your claim.
It doesn't entail concepts, as concepts are not a necessary part of perception. That doesn't amount to saying that no perception involves attendant concepts. Again, perception doesn't only refer to the passive receipt of "these signals," but sometimes it does refer to the passive receipt of "these signals." It simply doesn't exclusively refer to that.
Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
My point is the perceptions of all things will necessitate concepts.
If you perceived a tree, there must be a pre-existing concept of tree in your brain for you to understand all the waves input into your brain represent a tree.

Show me the common examples where you claimed no concepts are involved whenever you perceive those things?
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
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Sculptor
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Sculptor »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
My point is the perceptions of all things will necessitate concepts.
If you perceived a tree, there must be a pre-existing concept of tree in your brain for you to understand all the waves input into your brain represent a tree.
No way.
A person who has never seen a tree, and has no concept of a tree when apprehending such a thing for the first time can perceive that which is a tree without the need for a concept of it.
If we were to take you pov to a logical conclusion no one would EVER be able to see a new thing.

I'm not sure what thus says about your view on the world, but the outcomes do not look good.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Terrapin Station »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:51 am

It doesn't entail concepts, as concepts are not a necessary part of perception. That doesn't amount to saying that no perception involves attendant concepts. Again, perception doesn't only refer to the passive receipt of "these signals," but sometimes it does refer to the passive receipt of "these signals." It simply doesn't exclusively refer to that.
Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
My point is the perceptions of all things will necessitate concepts.
If you perceived a tree, there must be a pre-existing concept of tree in your brain for you to understand all the waves input into your brain represent a tree.

Show me the common examples where you claimed no concepts are involved whenever you perceive those things?
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
As someone who often perceives things where I make no conceptual associations, where I'm not identifying things in the sense of naming them, etc., it's hard for me to imagine what mental experience would be like for someone where that never happens. I'm not saying that no one's mind can work so that they have no perception without conceptual associations, etc.--I just can't imagine what that would be like, because it's so different than how my mental experience works.
commonsense
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by commonsense »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:25 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am
Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
My point is the perceptions of all things will necessitate concepts.
If you perceived a tree, there must be a pre-existing concept of tree in your brain for you to understand all the waves input into your brain represent a tree.

Show me the common examples where you claimed no concepts are involved whenever you perceive those things?
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
As someone who often perceives things where I make no conceptual associations, where I'm not identifying things in the sense of naming them, etc., it's hard for me to imagine what mental experience would be like for someone where that never happens. I'm not saying that no one's mind can work so that they have no perception without conceptual associations, etc.--I just can't imagine what that would be like, because it's so different than how my mental experience works.
It should be no formidable task for you to show many examples of your frequent perceptions that are not associated with concepts, as you were challenged to do.

Put up or shut up.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Terrapin Station »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:25 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm

I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
As someone who often perceives things where I make no conceptual associations, where I'm not identifying things in the sense of naming them, etc., it's hard for me to imagine what mental experience would be like for someone where that never happens. I'm not saying that no one's mind can work so that they have no perception without conceptual associations, etc.--I just can't imagine what that would be like, because it's so different than how my mental experience works.
It should be no formidable task for you to show many examples of your frequent perceptions that are not associated with concepts, as you were challenged to do.

Put up or shut up.
You can't show anyone else your perception, whether one makes conceptual associations with perceptions or not.

So I'm taking your comment to be doubting that someone else's perceptual experience could be different than your own? Why would you be skeptical of that? You're assuming that everyone's mental experience must be more or less similar?
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
No. I think you are mistaking Chomsky's work on this matter.
Whilst generally we tend to have a conceptual anticipation of all perception, and this can explain many anomalies and failures of perception. I do not think Chomsky would accept your stark assertion without some reservations.

We have evolved from living things which have no conception of what they are perceiving. All creatures without language are perfectly happy perceiving things, without having concepts to lable their conceptions. Moreover, we can perceiving many aspect, details and nuances of colour, art, music, feelings for which no set of concepts are understood.
Most people are perfectly capable of understanding, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony without having the concepts of transposition, prestissimo, candence, crescendo, forte, glissando ad infinitem yet hear them, and perceive them perfectly.

There are many examples where perception can occur without ANY conceptions. How else could you preceive something new, such as a thing never seen, or heard?
commonsense
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by commonsense »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
No. I think you are mistaking Chomsky's work on this matter.
Whilst generally we tend to have a conceptual anticipation of all perception, and this can explain many anomalies and failures of perception. I do not think Chomsky would accept your stark assertion without some reservations.

We have evolved from living things which have no conception of what they are perceiving. All creatures without language are perfectly happy perceiving things, without having concepts to lable their conceptions. Moreover, we can perceiving many aspect, details and nuances of colour, art, music, feelings for which no set of concepts are understood.
Most people are perfectly capable of understanding, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony without having the concepts of transposition, prestissimo, candence, crescendo, forte, glissando ad infinitem yet hear them, and perceive them perfectly.

There are many examples where perception can occur without ANY conceptions. How else could you preceive something new, such as a thing never seen, or heard?
I stand corrected, on all counts. Thanks, Sculptor, for your comments.

A significant mistake I made was to believe that if a concept exists that correlates with a perception, then the concept must be an integral part of the perception.

As you’ve made clear to me, this is obviously not the case.
Last edited by commonsense on Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:03 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
No. I think you are mistaking Chomsky's work on this matter.
Whilst generally we tend to have a conceptual anticipation of all perception, and this can explain many anomalies and failures of perception. I do not think Chomsky would accept your stark assertion without some reservations.

We have evolved from living things which have no conception of what they are perceiving. All creatures without language are perfectly happy perceiving things, without having concepts to lable their conceptions. Moreover, we can perceiving many aspect, details and nuances of colour, art, music, feelings for which no set of concepts are understood.
Most people are perfectly capable of understanding, say, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony without having the concepts of transposition, prestissimo, candence, crescendo, forte, glissando ad infinitem yet hear them, and perceive them perfectly.

There are many examples where perception can occur without ANY conceptions. How else could you preceive something new, such as a thing never seen, or heard?
I stand corrected, on all counts. Thanks, Sculptor, for your comments.
No problem.
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by commonsense »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:30 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:25 pm

As someone who often perceives things where I make no conceptual associations, where I'm not identifying things in the sense of naming them, etc., it's hard for me to imagine what mental experience would be like for someone where that never happens. I'm not saying that no one's mind can work so that they have no perception without conceptual associations, etc.--I just can't imagine what that would be like, because it's so different than how my mental experience works.
It should be no formidable task for you to show many examples of your frequent perceptions that are not associated with concepts, as you were challenged to do.

Put up or shut up.
You can't show anyone else your perception, whether one makes conceptual associations with perceptions or not.

So I'm taking your comment to be doubting that someone else's perceptual experience could be different than your own? Why would you be skeptical of that? You're assuming that everyone's mental experience must be more or less similar?
You can show what you’re talking about, or demonstrate what your argument is claiming, by giving examples, such as Sculptor has done. You did not. You should shut up.

You’ve taken my comment 180 degrees off center. I don’t doubt what you say I doubt; I am not skeptical of what you say I am skeptical; I do not assume what you say I assume.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Terrapin Station »

commonsense wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:00 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:30 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 pm

It should be no formidable task for you to show many examples of your frequent perceptions that are not associated with concepts, as you were challenged to do.

Put up or shut up.
You can't show anyone else your perception, whether one makes conceptual associations with perceptions or not.

So I'm taking your comment to be doubting that someone else's perceptual experience could be different than your own? Why would you be skeptical of that? You're assuming that everyone's mental experience must be more or less similar?
You can show what you’re talking about, or demonstrate what your argument is claiming, by giving examples, such as Sculptor has done. You did not. You should shut up.

You’ve taken my comment 180 degrees off center. I don’t doubt what you say I doubt; I am not skeptical of what you say I am skeptical; I do not assume what you say I assume.
Okay, but that wouldn't be literally showing you perception without attendant concepts. And if you're not skeptical of it, there would be no reason to request that you be convinced that it's possible--which it looks like has already been done above at any rate.

Re examples, take any time I see a mass of items in my visual field, for example: take the tens of different things apparent when receiving visual data from my office, without having any present phenomenal data of not just concepts for those things but even names for them, etc. This is what the bulk of my perception is like. Thinking of names of things I perceive, concepts I associate with them, semantic associations, etc. is the relative rarity.

I'd guess that this must not be how your awareness typically works, however, or you'd not doubt the notion of it and need to be convinced or "shown" that it's possible, hence why I'd not expect a simple description of an example to do the trick.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hermeneutics: Applications?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:51 am

It doesn't entail concepts, as concepts are not a necessary part of perception. That doesn't amount to saying that no perception involves attendant concepts. Again, perception doesn't only refer to the passive receipt of "these signals," but sometimes it does refer to the passive receipt of "these signals." It simply doesn't exclusively refer to that.
Note your claim is that your perceptions do not entail concepts.
My point is the perceptions of all things will necessitate concepts.
If you perceived a tree, there must be a pre-existing concept of tree in your brain for you to understand all the waves input into your brain represent a tree.

Show me the common examples where you claimed no concepts are involved whenever you perceive those things?
I don’t think there are examples where perception can take place without either pre-existing concepts or the formulation of concepts.

Perception is a thinking process. A la Chomsky, thought is intertwined with language, and language consists of pointers that relate to the world, either real or imagined.
  • Perception (from the Latin perceptio, meaning gathering or receiving) is the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the presented information or environment.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception#
You need to read the whole article re Perception above.
Perception is an instinctive spontaneous process.
Note the following image;

Image

If you perceive a either a duck or rabbit in the first instance, did you use any conscious thinking or deliberation at all?

The perception is instantaneous.
The moment the waves touches your retina and to the visual system, your cognitive faculties will search for whatever is pre-conceptualized in your brain and process further to culminate a perception of either a duck or rabbit depending on which concept is more domineering.

There is no language per se involved in the above perception.

The same process is executed for all other perceptions.

The language, thinking and relating to other concepts come later for communication purposes.
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