Wholeness and Fragmentation

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attofishpi
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 5:07 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:49 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:57 pm
The purpose of life for me as a mini universe as opposed to dog is its potential for conscious evolution.
Consciously evolve into what though? That's the bit that's puzzles me Nick

For me, there's just God dreaming endless dreams, playing each and every role, as and through the character/mind/body mechanism whether that be human or animal, or even as and through Flora, & Fauna... Also including the idea of Satan and Evil. Each character being a popped aware aspect of Gods ultimate infinite awareness...popped awareness that is constantly arising and falling like a wave out of the ocean. And that everything that could possibly happen is happening simultaneously right here and now infintely for eternity.

It's that simple for me. Nothing is excluded, nothing is included, for God is all inclusive.

I also believe that Gods love for itself is unconditional, it allows all expression of being, one side is of an expansive nature - while the other side is of a contraction nature, contraction that tends to automatically coil away from evil and hatred. And that both love and hate are mutually arising like that of the heartbeat, contracting and expanding within the same body. I also think that the whole universe is God's body.

There's a part of the heart that expresses itself as harmful evil and hatred, and there's the opposite side of the heart that expresses itself as pure harmless love and all things of beauty. And yet it's all the same one love in action dreaming difference where there is none. This is how I see, and cannot change my way of seeing it this way.
I agree with much of what DAM expressed here. I just don't use any image or name of a personified god.
What? no photo or a name!? What's going on here!
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:49 pm
From my perspective (which is like DAM's), all is connected, as well as being diverse. Nothing is separate -- only humans create stories that separate things.
So God or "&^*&(&()&*%&$"

You are having a real problem convincing me you are an atheist LW ...i'm not so sure you can still hang out with the cool kids like Sculptor and co NE more.

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:07 pm
You are having a real problem convincing me you are an atheist LW
Aside from the fact that I don't care about what you feel convinced of, it is your own limited notions that prevent you from seeing beyond the stories you live by.

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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 5:19 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:07 pm
You are having a real problem convincing me you are an atheist LW
Aside from the fact that I don't care about what you feel convinced of, it is your own limited notions that prevent you from seeing beyond the stories you live by.
What exactly is this notion and story I am limited by?

Nick_A
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Nick_A » Fri May 22, 2020 5:28 pm

DaM

Nick_A wrote: ↑
Thu May 21, 2020 7:57 pm
The purpose of life for me as a mini universe as opposed to dog is its potential for conscious evolution.

Consciously evolve into what though? That's the bit that's puzzles me Nick


What is “being?” You believe that existence is the result of an ever changing dualism of a dream. It doesn’t require laws but only the will and the need of God for some reason to dream. Consider these three statements:
The notion "being" is the philosopohic notion that denotes: 1) something that is existing, 2) the totality of really existing things, the existing reality. "Non-being" is the other philosophic notion that denotes: 1) absence of something, 2) all things non-existent in reality, non-existent reality.

Heidegger went on to say, “ 'Being-in' is thus the formal existential expression for the Being of Dasein, which has its Being-in-the-world as its essential state.” According to Steiner (1978), “Heidegger is saying that the notion of existential identity and that of world are completely wedded.

The Great Chain of Being is a hierarchical structure of all matter and life, thought in medieval Christianity to have been decreed by God. The chain starts with God and progresses downward to angels, humans, animals, plants, and minerals.
If being is relative, can a human being lawfully evolve from animal man as a creature of reaction into conscious Man capable of human will? Is it lawfully possible for the essence of a mineral to evolve into the essence of a plant? If it is, is it lawfully possible that animal Man as a creature of reaction can evolve into a conscious being capable of conscious action?

First of all people do not agree on what being is. Does it refer to existence and non existence, confined to the world, or a universal description of the levels of being which define our universe? Do laws sustain being or does dreaming make laws unnecessary? These questions are worth pondering but look what happens when people ponder politicallly incorrect ideas. You and I may disagree but does that mean we must act like raving lunatics especially when we disagree on something so essential for the human essence as “meaning?” can we respectfully disagree? But how can we do it?
“To think about God is to the human soul what breathing is to the human body.
I say to think about God, not necessarily to believe in God–that may or may not come later.
I say: to think about God.” ~Jacob Needleman in What Is God? p. 3 mm


For God or against God, “belief” or “atheism,” it makes no difference unless the inner yearning— or whatever we wish to call the cause and source of the “second breathing” — is there. And it can so easily be there, just as it can so easily be covered over and ignored, perhaps for the rest of one’s life. God or not God, “belief” or “science” — it also makes no real difference for my personal life unless the call of the Self and its need to “breathe” is heard and, ultimately, respected. Not only can thought about ultimate reality make no difference to the world or to my personal life unless we hear and respect the call of the Self, but such empty thought can bring down our personal and collective world, even our Earth itself. When thought races ahead of Being, a civilization is racing toward destruction.

Jacob Needleman: What Is God?
It is obvious that in the real world and in the cyber world there is a powerful effort to corrupt this second breathing through ridicule. I hope you’ve seen that even though we disagree I haven’t taken this attitude which attacks something as essential to freely ponder as “meaning”

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 5:56 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:19 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm
...it is your own limited notions that prevent you from seeing beyond the stories you live by.
What exactly is this notion and story I am limited by?
Notions and stories -- you have expressed many. If you can't remember them, read everything you've written on this forum. Then ask yourself what you might not be able to see because of that. I'm not interested in diving into your nonsense with you. I was simply pointing out the reason (which emanates from YOU) that you are apparently unable to fathom spiritual nature without the notion/story of a god attached to it.

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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:56 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:19 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm
...it is your own limited notions that prevent you from seeing beyond the stories you live by.
What exactly is this notion and story I am limited by?
Notions and stories -- you have expressed many. If you can't remember them, read everything you've written on this forum. Then ask yourself what you might not be able to see because of that. I'm not interested in diving into your nonsense with you. I was simply pointing out the reason (which emanates from YOU) that you are apparently unable to fathom spiritual nature without the notion/story of a god attached to it.
Ooo you are so vindictive.

Do you actually realise that spirituality is a contradiction to atheism?

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Ooo you are so vindictive.
How so?
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Do you actually realise that spirituality is a contradiction to atheism?
Please explain the reasoning for why you say that.

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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Ooo you are so vindictive.
How so?
You never actually address my statements and attempt to refute, rather just ad hominems spout out -> delusional - nonsense - fantasies bla bla...
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Do you actually realise that spirituality is a contradiction to atheism?
Please explain the reasoning for why you say that.
Atheism does not believe in the or a spirit.

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 6:41 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm
You never actually address my statements and attempt to refute, rather just ad hominems spout out -> delusional - nonsense - fantasies bla bla…
How is that vindictive? I'm saying that I see your statements as nonsense and fantasies. That's how I see them. Get it? Nothing vindictive.
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Do you actually realise that spirituality is a contradiction to atheism?
Please explain the reasoning for why you say that.
Atheism does not believe in the or a spirit.
Atheism refers to no belief in god or supreme beings. The concept of spirit can be associated with nature and all of its natural/innate connectivity and flow. So it is completely reasonable for someone to see and have a spiritual nature without believing in any concept of a god. I know many such people. But this is pointless to discuss with you because is doesn't serve you and the notions and stories you need and use to tell me what I am, even though you have no clue. Notions and stories must distort to maintain themselves.

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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:41 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm
You never actually address my statements and attempt to refute, rather just ad hominems spout out -> delusional - nonsense - fantasies bla bla…
How is that vindictive? I'm saying that I see your statements as nonsense and fantasies. That's how I see them. Get it? Nothing vindictive.
Oooo. Ok. But so long as you never actually have a comprehension of how or even attempt, to refute those 'nonsensical fantasies' eh?

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:08 pm
Please explain the reasoning for why you say that.
Atheism does not believe in the or a spirit.
Atheism refers to no belief in god or supreme beings. The concept of spirit can be associated with nature and all of its natural/innate connectivity and flow. So it is completely reasonable for someone to see and have a spiritual nature without believing in any concept of a god. I know many such people. But this is pointless to discuss with you because is doesn't serve you and the notions and stories you need and use to tell me what I am, even though you have no clue. Notions and stories must distort to maintain themselves.
You are a pantheist.

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 6:57 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm
Oooo. Ok. But so long as you never actually have a comprehension of how or even attempt, to refute those 'nonsensical fantasies' eh?
We've had many such discussions. Sometimes we agree... sometimes we don't. We seem to be on different tracks... and I'm simply not interested in yours enough to continually explore it.
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm
You are a pantheist.
That's not how I identify. I don't believe in anything as a "god". Why do you need to try to assign labels to me? Are you so dependent on such illusory notions that you're willing to ignore and distort in service to them?

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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:57 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm
You are a pantheist.
That's not how I identify. I don't believe in anything as a "god". Why do you need to try to assign labels to me? Are you so dependent on such illusory notions that you're willing to ignore and distort in service to them?
Problem is, we all are assigned some descriptive term - words have been ascribed to almost everything we can perceive and even those that some don't perceive.

I don't like the fact that pantheism is termed a 'religion'. I think there needs to be a distinction here.

But, unfortunately LW, unless you have something conceived regarding your spirituality that wo/man has not yet put some sort of definition to...you are a pantheist, and certainly not an atheist - sorry, some of us theists are cool too u know :wink:

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 7:36 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm
Problem is, we all are assigned some descriptive term
Who assigns?
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm
unfortunately LW, unless you have something conceived regarding your spirituality that wo/man has not yet put some sort of definition to...you are a pantheist, and certainly not an atheist - sorry, some of us theists are cool too u know :wink:
Your rigid and shallow definitions do not define me, Atto. Of course I like theists, as I've said. I don't share most of their beliefs, but I appreciate the same kind of goodness that any being can share and feel with any other being. What I question are the potential lies and delusions of anyone, either for themselves or projected at others.

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attofishpi
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by attofishpi » Fri May 22, 2020 8:19 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:36 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm
Problem is, we all are assigned some descriptive term
Who assigns?
Err...terms such as Pantheism to a belief that the universe is all connected with an aethereal energy?
The same dude that invented language>? who nose.

Maybe its the dude that set the Alphabet up so that it balances out perfectly between the consonants and the vowels:

Vowels of the Sage
Image

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:36 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm
unfortunately LW, unless you have something conceived regarding your spirituality that wo/man has not yet put some sort of definition to...you are a pantheist, and certainly not an atheist - sorry, some of us theists are cool too u know :wink:
Your rigid and shallow definitions do not define me, Atto.
I did not define pantheism. Pantheism is the glove that fits the LW hand.

A. Einstein was considered a pantheist so I wouldn't fret about its logical veracity too much.

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:36 pm
Of course I like theists, as I've said. I don't share most of their beliefs,
Theism covers a vast field, you certainly share a large component of my 'belief'.

Lacewing wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:36 pm
..but I appreciate the same kind of goodness that any being can share and feel with any other being. What I question are the potential lies and delusions of anyone, either for themselves or projected at others.
Lies - charlatans.
Delusions - Richard Dorkins.
Projection - to others ..this is an internet forum, where people project their beliefs and indeed knowledge whether you believe in what they are stating or not - does not give you the automatic right to consider them liars or delusional - address their shortcomings in logic, not your own.

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Lacewing
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Re: Wholeness and Fragmentation

Post by Lacewing » Fri May 22, 2020 8:33 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:19 pm
...
Okay... I can only take so much of you, and we've reached that point. :lol: So, fare you well.

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