DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:56 pm

:clown:
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"Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by henry quirk » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:57 pm

Speakin' only for myself: it's better to 'be' than 'not be'.

It's worth every miserable step along a rockscrabble, meanderin' path to 'be' (here & now, fleshy & livin').

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Nick_A » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:33 am

Age
There is an innate drive within us to BELIEVE. This drive is to believe in one's Self and Its capabilities, but from as early as christ's time we are taught to believe in "other" things.
I agree that a three year old is self centered. The child is the center of the universe. But at a young age they notice the world around them as distinct from themselves but with qualities that arouse awe and wonder. The incentive then isn’t to believe in themselves but rather experience where they belong in relation to the external world. Are we taught to believe in nature or is it a human norm to experience our connection to it including when it totally dominates them. Creating Gods as expressions of nature seems a reasonable thing to do.

This IMO is the source of the problem. The human condition has made it impossible for humanity as a whole to answer basic questions honestly so we adopt all sorts of beliefs. Education has become nothing but indoctrination into beliefs and the result is that we don’t even know what it means to “understand” much less be open to what is necessary in order to understand. If we are captured by all sorts of beliefs, how many can be expected to open to the meaning and purpose of our universe much less our objective meaning and purpose within it?
One word - Honesty.

That is; Absolute full Honesty. This is what brings full OPENNESS back.
But if we are honest we can witness that we are incapable of honesty and descend into hypocrisy. Honesty requires the ability to retain conscious attention and without it we cannot witness reality and respond honestly to it. Simone Weil describes our situation:
."Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil
Yes we are incapable of the rarest and purest form of generosity. To make matters worse, modern culture is doing its best to limit our attention span to what is necessary for indoctrination. I agree as to the value of the ability to be honest with ourselves but I also know that the world is against it. Under these conditions how many can be expected to open to the objective meaning and purpose of the universe and humanity within it?
Overcoming this "hurdle" is the hardest of all. This is because of all of the prejudice thinking, judging, punishing, and ridiculing that continually goes on from "others", IF and when we are Honest with them. This "battle" even goes on within our self, as we do not like to even be Truly Honest with our own selves, so we can fall into this descent even further, and are thus trapped in being in complete DENIAL of things.

And as the old saying goes; 'No one can help you if you do not want to help your own self', and, "Before you can help "others" you need to help yourself first". But, no one can really help them self if they do not believe that they have a problem. If a person is in DENIAL that they have a problem, then really, to them, there is nothing to fix. The Truth, however, IS if a person does not have any problems, then they would be perfect, and how many people are there REALLY, who are perfect?
Admitting the problem requires becoming able to admit as Socrates did that “I know nothing.” There is tremendous resistance to this effort both from psychology and technology. It is more fulfilling to argue about it or deny it so the question “how to become able to understand” rarely comes up.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am

I agree the OP question is idiotic, only the very depressed and the pessimistic would bother to ask such a question.

DNA wise ALL* humans are coded with the impulse to survive as long as possible till the inevitable. * the exceptions are the mentally sick.
To ask the above question is contradicting this natural and instinctive survival impulse.

The fact is a person is born and is equipped with various faculties to optimize one's well being.

Since all humans has the mental faculties to deal with the problems of life, all humans should be exposed and educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life.
Here is one technique among many;

Buddha's 4NT-8FP -A Life Problem Solving Technique
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... P#p2516029

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Re: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:39 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:57 pm
Speakin' only for myself: it's better to 'be' than 'not be'.

It's worth every miserable step along a rockscrabble, meanderin' path to 'be' (here & now, fleshy & livin').
So for you it's worth it..so how about living forever without ever dying, would that idea be of interest to you?

You don't have to answer, I'm just being curious.

.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:35 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
I agree the OP question is idiotic, only the very depressed and the pessimistic would bother to ask such a question.
No, only a very aware intelligence would question it's own apparent existence. It's the ones who believe in their own sense of individual importance who are the pessimistic depressed ones. Non-existence is existence. You Veritas Aequitas are as dumb as rocks, you are the one contradicting yourself here. An individual, is an ego tragically obsessed not only with the apparent believe in it's own individual self, but with it's own sense of not-existing.
But, who are you, and where are you? what are you? ..in truth you HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA except what you make-up out of your assumped empty headed archive of ideas, appearing as empty words, that arise HERE AND NOW which is a mystery even to itself idiot...So stop pretending YOU KNOW what the hell you are talking about because you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. There's just this blind belief in a knowledge that is thought and believed to be what constitutes an answer to what will always remain forever unanswerable, and mysterious.
Can you recall your very own inception? Nope, you relied on your empty secondry knowledge to inform you. There is simply no such thing as an individual in existence except in this conception. Although existence is sensation which is apparenly what gives rise to the apparent sense of being, this sense of being appears to be very real and palpable, even though there is nothing being being. There is no knowledge of any how's or why's existence is the way it is, it just IS.

Any knowledge of your individual existence is an illusion, and just as you can recognise the illusion of knowledge, you can also prevent any future existence from also becoming knowledgeable of their illusory existence as well, that's all I'm stating here. So this pointing that I am pointing to has got absolutely nothing to do with mental illness you idiot...there's no such idea of mental illness unless there is a self knowing it is mentally ill...THERE IS NO SUCH SELF...this self is a fiction believed to be real as knowledge dictates...do you understand? HELLO!!!!
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
DNA wise ALL* humans are coded with the impulse to survive as long as possible till the inevitable. * the exceptions are the mentally sick.
IF, Being mentally sick is real at all then it's all part of the DNA make up that is human sentient life. Within that DNA there is the apparent sense of knowing I am aware, this knowledge is what informs the illusion of self it's illusory sense of separation which is the cause of all stress and anxiety appearing as and through the living organism, it's a feeling of isolation and despair, it's a naturally forming chemical that is inherent in the human organisms brain put there by life itself...dictated by DNA itself.
So you are really barking up the wrong tree here as per usual...you separate out of life itself the idea of there being some kind of mental sickness that shouldn't be here. You then concoct some notion that there is a cure for this condition that is not here, since you've separated it out from life itself.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
The fact is a person is born and is equipped with various faculties to optimize one's well being.

Since all humans has the mental faculties to deal with the problems of life, all humans should be exposed and educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life.
Here is one technique among many;

Buddha's 4NT-8FP -A Life Problem Solving Technique
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... P#p2516029
To assume there is a ''someone'' that needs to be educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life is also a contradiction in terms.

My point is that if life is appearing as a problem it needs to solve, then it's some pretty dumb shitty thick as bricks mentally screwed up supposedly DNA wise ALL* but isn't. In other words, it's one dumb stupid system operating here that it believes it has a problem that it then has to process a way to fix it, is it not? What the heck is wise about that ?

A more efficient effective BETTER strategy would be not to create the problems of life in the first place by creating new ones to replace the old ones.
It's not rocket science.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:44 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:35 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
I agree the OP question is idiotic, only the very depressed and the pessimistic would bother to ask such a question.
No, only a very aware intelligence would question it's own apparent existence. It's the ones who believe in their own sense of individual importance who are the pessimistic depressed ones. Non-existence is existence. You Veritas Aequitas are as dumb as rocks, you are the one contradicting yourself here. An individual, is an ego tragically obsessed not only with the apparent believe in it's own individual self, but with it's own sense of not-existing.
But, who are you, and where are you? what are you? ..in truth you HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA except what you make-up out of your assumped empty headed archive of ideas, appearing as empty words, that arise HERE AND NOW which is a mystery even to itself idiot...So stop pretending YOU KNOW what the hell you are talking about because you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. There's just this blind belief in a knowledge that is thought and believed to be what constitutes an answer to what will always remain forever unanswerable, and mysterious.
Can you recall your very own inception? Nope, you relied on your empty secondry knowledge to inform you. There is simply no such thing as an individual in existence except in this conception. Although existence is sensation which is apparenly what gives rise to the apparent sense of being, this sense of being appears to be very real and palpable, even though there is nothing being being. There is no knowledge of any how's or why's existence is the way it is, it just IS.

Any knowledge of your individual existence is an illusion, and just as you can recognise the illusion of knowledge, you can also prevent any future existence from also becoming knowledgeable of their illusory existence as well, that's all I'm stating here. So this pointing that I am pointing to has got absolutely nothing to do with mental illness you idiot...there's no such idea of mental illness unless there is a self knowing it is mentally ill...THERE IS NO SUCH SELF...this self is a fiction believed to be real as knowledge dictates...do you understand? HELLO!!!!
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
DNA wise ALL* humans are coded with the impulse to survive as long as possible till the inevitable. * the exceptions are the mentally sick.
IF, Being mentally sick is real at all then it's all part of the DNA make up that is human sentient life. Within that DNA there is the apparent sense of knowing I am aware, this knowledge is what informs the illusion of self it's illusory sense of separation which is the cause of all stress and anxiety appearing as and through the living organism, it's a feeling of isolation and despair, it's a naturally forming chemical that is inherent in the human organisms brain put there by life itself...dictated by DNA itself.
So you are really barking up the wrong tree here as per usual...you separate out of life itself the idea of there being some kind of mental sickness that shouldn't be here. You then concoct some notion that there is a cure for this condition that is not here, since you've separated it out from life itself.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am
The fact is a person is born and is equipped with various faculties to optimize one's well being.

Since all humans has the mental faculties to deal with the problems of life, all humans should be exposed and educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life.
Here is one technique among many;

Buddha's 4NT-8FP -A Life Problem Solving Technique
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... P#p2516029
To assume there is a ''someone'' that needs to be educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life is also a contradiction in terms.

My point is that if life is appearing as a problem it needs to solve, then it's some pretty dumb shitty thick as bricks mentally screwed up supposedly DNA wise ALL* but isn't. In other words, it's one dumb stupid system operating here that it believes it has a problem that it then has to process a way to fix it, is it not? What the heck is wise about that ?
You have an iron ball spike jammed up your c_nt?
For your own good, you should consult a psychiatrist.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:48 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:44 am
You have an iron ball spike jammed up your c_nt?
For your own good, you should consult a psychiatrist.
Scream all you like at the mirror, in space no one can hear you scream!!!

A more efficient effective BETTER strategy would be not to create the problems of life in the first place by REcreating new ones to replace the old ones.
It's not rocket science.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am

Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How can you do no harm if everything is alive
Why bring the word harm into this
You claim that everything is alive and you also say do no harm
So how can you live your life without harming something then

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:14 am

Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
There is no evidence for reincarnation but even if there was I would not want to come back in any form at all
When I die I want to stay dead forever never having to experience a single second of consciousness ever again
And especially if I had zero choice about the body and mind that I would be trapped inside of for all of its life
I am just curious as to why if any one feels and thinks this way that they continue to stay alive

If you NEVER want to experience consciousness again then WHY stay experiencing consciousness now
I have to stay alive so I am leaving it up to Mother Nature to decide when to take me from this life
I have no problem with temporary consciousness but not for all of eternity as that is my idea of hell

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Well, we live because we want to live.
Oh really!!
Who is this 'we' that wants to live? no one who is living ever had the choice of whether to live or not, that choice was made by someone else. Therefore, the assumed 'we' that wants to live had no other choice but to live whether it wanted it or not, so to say 'we' live because we WANT to live is BULLSHIT.

NOW for the 'me' who is here living without ever having any choice in whether it WANTED to live or not, matters not, for it can now just choose to kill itself, which is just more suffering, especially for the one who now wants to kill itself because it's feeling so terrible that it's only way out of it's suffering is to just end it all, yes it can WANT that end, it can want to end it...but then, that's just creating even more suffering for the loved ones it leaves behind. So yeah, great idea, lets just create even more suffering, that'll fix the problem, it's like the darn suffering problem knows no end.

bahman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm
The other side is death.
You mean the side where all that lives comes from? that just proves death is not the answer, in that death just gives birth to itself again.

.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:16 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:33 am
Age
There is an innate drive within us to BELIEVE. This drive is to believe in one's Self and Its capabilities, but from as early as christ's time we are taught to believe in "other" things.
I agree that a three year old is self centered. The child is the center of the universe. But at a young age they notice the world around them as distinct from themselves but with qualities that arouse awe and wonder. The incentive then isn’t to believe in themselves but rather experience where they belong in relation to the external world. Are we taught to believe in nature or is it a human norm to experience our connection to it including when it totally dominates them. Creating Gods as expressions of nature seems a reasonable thing to do.

This IMO is the source of the problem. The human condition has made it impossible for humanity as a whole to answer basic questions honestly so we adopt all sorts of beliefs. Education has become nothing but indoctrination into beliefs and the result is that we don’t even know what it means to “understand” much less be open to what is necessary in order to understand. If we are captured by all sorts of beliefs, how many can be expected to open to the meaning and purpose of our universe much less our objective meaning and purpose within it?
EVERY one.
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:33 am
One word - Honesty.

That is; Absolute full Honesty. This is what brings full OPENNESS back.
But if we are honest we can witness that we are incapable of honesty and descend into hypocrisy. Honesty requires the ability to retain conscious attention and without it we cannot witness reality and respond honestly to it. Simone Weil describes our situation:
."Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil
Yes we are incapable of the rarest and purest form of generosity. To make matters worse, modern culture is doing its best to limit our attention span to what is necessary for indoctrination. I agree as to the value of the ability to be honest with ourselves but I also know that the world is against it. Under these conditions how many can be expected to open to the objective meaning and purpose of the universe and humanity within it?
Overcoming this "hurdle" is the hardest of all. This is because of all of the prejudice thinking, judging, punishing, and ridiculing that continually goes on from "others", IF and when we are Honest with them. This "battle" even goes on within our self, as we do not like to even be Truly Honest with our own selves, so we can fall into this descent even further, and are thus trapped in being in complete DENIAL of things.

And as the old saying goes; 'No one can help you if you do not want to help your own self', and, "Before you can help "others" you need to help yourself first". But, no one can really help them self if they do not believe that they have a problem. If a person is in DENIAL that they have a problem, then really, to them, there is nothing to fix. The Truth, however, IS if a person does not have any problems, then they would be perfect, and how many people are there REALLY, who are perfect?
Admitting the problem requires becoming able to admit as Socrates did that “I know nothing.” There is tremendous resistance to this effort both from psychology and technology. It is more fulfilling to argue about it or deny it so the question “how to become able to understand” rarely comes up.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am

The fact is a person is born and is equipped with various faculties to optimize one's well being.

Since all humans has the mental faculties to deal with the problems of life, all humans should be exposed and educated to the effective strategies to deal with the problem of life.
Here is one technique among many;

Buddha's 4NT-8FP -A Life Problem Solving Technique
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... P#p2516029

Great, so according to you, it's a fact that a person is BORN and is equipped with various faculties to optimize one's well being. So it's ok then, no need for you to rescue anyone from their OWN deluded mind-sets then is there?

Except you have to interfere with other peoples mind-sets by judging them, you constantly slam islamic belief structures, as if it's any of your business anyway. Stupid hypocrite!!

There's no need for you to talk incessantly about the islamist religious problems that are according to you deluded, when it's none of your business how those islamic people choose to live their lives, whether those lives is believing in a god called Allah. Also, if all those non-believers don't believe then they will be killed without mercy is the islamic mind-set, then who cares? since all those people are already BORN and equipped with the mental faculties to deal with the problems of life anyway, so then why should how they choose to live their lives be any of your business?
Why stick your big fat know it all rude crass beak into their affairs that is none of your concern?

Does their religious ideologies depress you, do they cause you misery and suffering, and anxiety, do they mentally disturb you? do they make you mentally sick? or are you just jolly well ok because you are now the all knowing shining Buddha who adheres to Buddha principles applying them to your life. A life where I am now so happy, happy, joy, joy, forever and ever, problem permanently solved AMEN!

Except it isn't is it, the problem seems to be still running around inside your busy little body mind like some out of control virus that just refuses to be cured, as if it's almost like you enjoy getting off on your constant desire to judge other people about the way they choose to live their life, and what they choose to believe in.

.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:51 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:30 pm

Plato called the Source of existence the Good. You see its results as evil. But suppose what you call evil is a universal necessity?
What's the point in evil as a necessity? why does evil have to be a necessity?


Nick_A wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:30 pm
Perfection is only the attribute of God.
But how can a God that doesn't create itself attribute the concept of perfection to itself if there is nothing created there in the first place... where did the concept perfection come from?
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:30 pm
Whatever is created must be imperfect by definition since God doesn’t create itself.
So what's creating the concept imperfect? and can a concept know it's imperfect? who knows it's imperfect, since the assumed all knowing good God doesn't create itself?


Nick_A wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:30 pm
Is it better to emotionally condemn a universal necessity or to understand it so as to serve this necessity we are a part of?
Again, why does the concept of evil need to be a neessity? something that needs to be understood so as to serve this necessity to be necessary?

Why is it necessary to suffer being alive?

What's good about that?

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:55 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am
Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How can you do no harm if everything is alive
Why bring the word harm into this
You claim that everything is alive and you also say do no harm
I do not recall saying, or telling people, to do no harm, but you might be able to direct us to where I said that, that is; if I did.

I do, however, recall saying that every thing is alive, and, there is one rule and that is do not abuse any thing, which has a different aspect to it. That is; if you no abuse was being done, then ALL would be living happily in peace and harmony.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am
So how can you live your life without harming something then
I will wait to see if that is what I actually said or not first. And if I did, then I will also be able to see in what context I said it so then I could comment accurately..

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