Individualism vs. Collectivism

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Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm
No. Arguments, per se, don't have a telos. Their design is contingent, and their goals mutable. They have purposes formed in the mind of the framers, they have directions, which may or may not be the stated aims they represent, but there's no ultimate telos for which all arguments qua arguments are destined.
But I am not talking about arguments in general. I am talking about arguments in particular. I am talking about YOUR arguments.
The arguments which YOU make.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm
Telos pertains to created objects.
The arguments which YOU make are created by YOU. Are they not? Least you are going to argue that your words aren't really your words.

Arguments are created. As created entities arguments have telos.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:17 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 pm
But I am not talking about arguments in general. I am talking about arguments in particular. I am talking about YOUR arguments.
The arguments which YOU make.
No arguments have telos.

That being said, arguments have instrumental value, and are often directed at a purpose. This purpose may or may not be reconcilable with the true telos of a human being.

Another way of putting this is that telos is objective and singular; but arguments are directed to subjective goals.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:17 pm
No arguments have telos.
So you (as the sole creator of any particular argument) are telling me that your arguments have no true, right and ultimate purpose?

Then why do you argue?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:17 pm
Another way of putting this is that telos is objective and singular; but arguments are directed to subjective goals.
No, it isn't. Unless you are tying to tell me that telos of a car is the same as a telos of a toilet.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:17 pm
No arguments have telos.
So you (as the sole creator of any particular argument) are telling me that your arguments have no true, right and ultimate purpose?
No, I am not saying that.

You're mixing two things, by accident: 1. The ultimate purpose of human being, and 2. Contingent purposes an individual human being may create for himself.

They're not the same things at all. 1. is "telos," 2. is not.

See above.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:25 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:19 pm
No, it isn't. Unless you are tying to tell me that telos of a car is the same as a telos of a toilet.
No, no no...telos is different for things of different kinds.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm
You're mixing two things, by accident: 1. The ultimate purpose of human being, and 2. Contingent purposes an individual human being may create for himself.
You are mixing yourself up. At no point did I ever bring up the 'telos of human beings' into the discussion - you did that.

I was (and still am) talking about the 'telos of arguments'.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm
They're not the same things at all. 1. is "telos," 2. is not.

See above.
Non-sequitur.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:25 pm
No, no no...telos is different for things of different kinds.
I agree!

Which is precisely why I am asking you this exact question: What is the telos of the kind of things you call 'arguments' ?

Surely you must know the telos of the things you have chosen to create?
If the creator of an object doesn't know its telos, then who would?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:29 pm
Which is precisely why I am asking you this exact question: What is the telos of the kind of things you call 'arguments' ?
Ask the Creator. But it might be something like "to form the human character by allowing negotiation among competing wills." That might be the telos of all argumentation.

But that question has no relevance to what you were asking me, I suspect.

Try again, without the word "telos."

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm
Ask the Creator.
I am!!! I am asking you!

You are the Creator of the arguments you make! Are you abdicating responsibility for your own words?

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm
But it might be something like "to form the human character by allowing negotiation among competing wills." That might be the telos of all argumentation.
I am not talking about ALL arguments. I am talking about YOUR arguments. The arguments that YOU create. What is the telos of YOUR arguments?

As the creator of said arguments, surely you MUST know?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm
But that question has no relevance to what you were asking me, I suspect.

Try again, without the word "telos."
I did. I asked you for your intent behind creating arguments.

Nick_A
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:58 pm
I am pretty sure that's exactly the same question as "What is the intent of your argument?"
No. Arguments, per se, don't have a telos. Their design is contingent, and their goals mutable. They have purposes formed in the mind of the framers, they have directions, which may or may not be the stated aims they represent, but there's no ultimate telos for which all arguments qua arguments are destined.

Telos pertains to created objects. In particular, it pertains to human beings themselves, and to the question, "What is a human being for?"
What is a human being for? The essential question. We don't know so the collective makes our ignorance tolerable. Only the true individual has other possibilities.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:54 pm
I did. I asked you for your intent behind creating arguments.
This has nothing to do with telos.

But I think that point is just something we're going to have to leave.

So what particular argument were you questioning, again?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:16 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:13 pm
What is a human being for? The essential question. We don't know...
Who is "we" and how do you know nobody else knows?

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm
So what particular argument were you questioning, again?
Evidently - all of your arguments.

Apparently none of them have a true, real purpose.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:27 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm
So what particular argument were you questioning, again?
Evidently - all of your arguments.
Non-responsive.

"Particular." If not anything "particular," then there's no more to say.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:27 pm
Non-responsive.

"Particular." If not anything "particular," then there's no more to say.
You are a very confused person.

If you asked me "Which eggs in the fridge are rotten?" and I told you "ALL of them" that's as particular as it gets.

The same thing goes with "ALL of your arguments which have no true, real purpose".

According to you that's ALL of them. That's as particular as it gets.

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