Question for determinists about the future

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JamesMorrisfive
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Question for determinists about the future

Post by JamesMorrisfive » Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm

My first question is do you believe that the illusion of free will was a necessary evil for the advancement and survival of the human race? I'm not saying it still is or that society would crumble if everyone became aware of the fact that their biology controls everything, but do you think it was necessary up until now or fairly recently in the history of the human race? I'm not religious by any means, but it might be an adequate response to the question of "if there is a God (or some kind of intelligent designer), why does he allow evil people to exists/evil things to happen." Maybe there was a plan all a long? I only bring this up because I've recently been reading about how incredibly complex the design of some living things are and how unlikely life was to even begin. Even without the God part it's still a question that I'm curious about.

My second question for now is if the fact that our biology controls everything becomes so obvious through advances in science that everyone accepts it as being true, I wonder how does that affect what we would do for fun/entertainment in the future? Do we get the same kind of enjoyment from playing/watching sports or games knowing that everything is predetermined? Do we still enjoy tv shows/movies where there's a good guy and a bad guy knowing that there's really no such thing as "good" and "bad." Do we still enjoy comedy even though most of the time someone is the dope or the fall guy in humorous tv shows/movies?

I can envision a future utopia where everyone views the rest of the world as being in this together instead of me vs you or us vs them, and celebrating everyone's uniqueness and differences and wanting to help people with problems instead of judge or shame, but I'm wondering what do we do for fun/entertainment in this future world or maybe that doesn't change?

jayjacobus
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Re: Question for determinists about the future

Post by jayjacobus » Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 pm

JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm


My second question for now is if the fact that our biology controls everything becomes so obvious through advances in science that everyone accepts it as being true


You could be right if consciousness is a brain process but does it seem like a process to you? If you do then you need to propose a process that results in consciousness.

I don’t know what form consciousness has but I don’t think it is a function of the brain’s processes. There is some speculation of what is the basis and one speculation is it is physical. I personally suspect that is a property. We know that the properties of water are correlated to H2O but how H2O actually makes the properties are unknown as far as I know. But how that works is probably where consciousness comes from. We need to understand the mechanisms(?) that transforms atoms and molecules into properties. Then we need to know which molecules create the underlying properties in consciousness.

On the other hand maybe we shouldn’t go there.

Nevertheless, consciousness is in the present and responds to stimuli but also to preferences, needs and wants. The latter elements are internal motivations without biological origins. If I am going to the beach, it's because I want to go to the beach, not because a biomechanical cascade drives me.

Age
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Re: Question for determinists about the future

Post by Age » Wed May 15, 2019 3:25 pm

JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
My first question is do you believe that the illusion of free will was a necessary evil for the advancement and survival of the human race?
Are you proposing, in your "question", (intentional or not does not matter) that free will is only an illusion and thus NOT even real anyway?

By the way the 'end' is NOT the advancement and survival of the human race. Human beings, and their evil ways, were just a necessary part of evolution, to get to 'the end', where that will be.
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I'm not saying it still is or that society would crumble if everyone became aware of the fact that their biology controls everything,
You propose here that 'their' biology controls everything. The word 'their' implies ownership. So, who is the one who is the owner of 'their' 'biology'?

If there is an owner of one's 'biology', then surely they would be able to control it, and NOT the other way around.

Or, maybe, as I have found, BOTH play an equal part in things?

The biology of human body, and the environment (time and place) a human body is in, has helped in forming that 'one' who has evolved with 'their' biology and into having 'their' biology. But 'who' is that 'one' some may ask.

JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
but do you think it was necessary up until now or fairly recently in the history of the human race?
Are you absolutely 100% sure that biology controls EVERYTHING?

JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I'm not religious by any means, but it might be an adequate response to the question of "if there is a God (or some kind of intelligent designer), why does he allow evil people to exists/evil things to happen."
If you are seriously LOOKING FOR the answers or the Truth, then you will first have to get rid of the foolish notion that God is somehow a "he". Unless you could SHOW us all WHY God is a "he", which can you?

Secondly, there is NO such thing as "evil people". There is, however, people who do evil things and people who do good things, which IS ALL adult human beings. The reason WHY the concepts of 'evil' and 'good' exist is because human beings intrinsically KNOW the difference between 'good' from 'bad'. Judging "others" (and sometimes one's self) for being 'good' or 'bad' just comes from the misinformed notion of "judging" one another.

Anyway, the actual reason WHY human beings are totally free to choose to do 'good' or 'bad' is because they best learn from their mistakes. Human beings on a whole, or as you say "the human race", when and IF, they ever become Truly Honest, Open, and Responsible, then they WILL learn form their mistakes, and then start to living in a much better way than they are now, when this is written.
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
Maybe there was a plan all a long?
When you say 'all along' how far are you talking?
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I only bring this up because I've recently been reading about how incredibly complex the design of some living things are and how unlikely life was to even begin. Even without the God part it's still a question that I'm curious about.
A thing human beings have for centuries now completely missed is absolutely every physical thing is 'life', and if it was NOT for way ALL of the physical things were previously before NOW, then Life, as it is NOW, would NOT be the same. EVERY sun, planet, meteorite, rock, and galaxy is alive. They are 'life', just in another form. ALL living things APPEAR complex but really they are ALL just physicality/biology is different shapes and forms. ALL doing the NECESSARY thing of Life, that is; just in perpetual CHANGE. This change has been going on ALWAYS, and in ALL ways. The chances of Life even beginning is NONE, as Life is in constant-change or ever-present-motion.

There is NO beginning to Life as Life is ALWAYS in a constant state of change, in ALL ways.
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
My second question for now is if the fact that our biology controls everything becomes so obvious through advances in science that everyone accepts it as being true, I wonder how does that affect what we would do for fun/entertainment in the future?
Once it becomes obvious to ALL adult human beings that they only now exist, because of the absolutely incredible chances of ALL the biology/physicality previously CHANCED HAPPENINGS to have coincide so that "they" are now 'alive' in that body that they are within now, then this only ENHANCES the fun/entertainment in the "future". Just the fact that the chance of one's own parents meeting up, and literally coming together, to create the 'you', another 'life', would be enough to put another perspective on things, let alone the chances of their parents meeting, and their parents meeting, and EVERY other thing that would have also been NEEDED in the Universe to have met up, for "your" 'life' to even begin let alone where it is now, would be enough to wonder just how Truly AMAZING things REALLY ARE.

For physical matter in the Universe to meet up and create a conscious being who is becoming more aware of Its own Self, and continually evolving and becoming continually more aware/conscious of Its own Surroundings also will SHOW just how much MORE fun/entertaining things will REALLY BE-COME for human beings in the "future".
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
Do we get the same kind of enjoyment from playing/watching sports or games knowing that everything is predetermined?
No. Because absolutely EVERY thing CHANGES. No thing stays the same, so 'we' (human beings) will NOT get the same kind of enjoyment from playing/watching sports or games knowing that everything is predetermined. What 'you' (human beings) WILL get is far more gratitude, pleasure, satisfaction, and reward KNOWING that it was through your FREEDOM to CHOOSE how to behave better, from and by learning from your past mistakes, that it is the Conscious and Aware 'I', within you, that has actually predetermined this, and thus has predestined THIS Life, the way it was meant to be.

Instead of playing/watching sports and games to win in the "future" of when this is written, we are playing/watching sports and games of how ALL sports and games are meant to be played, that is; for the FUN of it. The game of Life is NOT about winning nor losing but about how 'you' PLAY the GAME. And what is the actual and real intended purpose for PLAY and GAMES, to win, or have fun?
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
Do we still enjoy tv shows/movies where there's a good guy and a bad guy knowing that there's really no such thing as "good" and "bad."
You have just about answered your own question here. KNOWING there is no such thing as "good" and "bad", then shows/movies are NOT made with "good" nor "bad" people. They are just made for the fun/entertainment factor ONLY. And, in this "future" to you, when this is written, people are NOT paid more than "others" for just doing what they enjoy doing anyway, that is; just 'acting', they do it for the love they get from seeing "others" enjoying themselves from the entertainment factor alone.

Life is just a stage anyway for the Truly Aware Consciousness, who just watches ALL of 'you' human beings who are just playing a part on, and in, this stage of Life, Itself.
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
Do we still enjoy comedy even though most of the time someone is the dope or the fall guy in humorous tv shows/movies?
When this is written you adult human beings do like to belittle "others" or put "them" down so you can feel somewhat better about "your" "selves", but comedy, in the "future", is laughed about because it is funny, and NOT at the expense of any "other". The KNOWLEDGE that 'we' ALL do stupid things and make mistakes is enough to NEVER judge nor ridicule "another". 'We' laugh at what is funny, not what "another" feels littled or degraded by.
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I can envision a future utopia where everyone views the rest of the world as being in this together instead of me vs you or us vs them, and celebrating everyone's uniqueness and differences and wanting to help people with problems instead of judge or shame, but I'm wondering what do we do for fun/entertainment in this future world or maybe that doesn't change?
The fun/entertainment is obtained through and by helping and supporting one "another" to help STOP doing what is WRONG, which is judging, ridiculing, laughing at, and punishing one "another". There is NO them nor us. 'We' are One and the SAME, collectively. But, individually, 'we' are EQUALLY very unique and different.

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henry quirk
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James

Post by henry quirk » Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 pm

If free will is a fiction (I don't think it is), then it's a deeply rooted fiction, one most folks won't give up as reality.

Think about it: there's no consensus among the navel gazers (philosophers) and the mad dissectors (scientists) on the subject of free will so why would non-philosophers and non-scientists fare any better?

No, fiction or reality, free will is here to stay.

Age
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Re: Question for determinists about the future

Post by Age » Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 pm
JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm


My second question for now is if the fact that our biology controls everything becomes so obvious through advances in science that everyone accepts it as being true


You could be right if consciousness is a brain process but does it seem like a process to you? If you do then you need to propose a process that results in consciousness.

I don’t know what form consciousness has but I don’t think it is a function of the brain’s processes. There is some speculation of what is the basis and one speculation is it is physical. I personally suspect that is a property. We know that the properties of water are correlated to H2O but how H2O actually makes the properties are unknown as far as I know. But how that works is probably where consciousness comes from. We need to understand the mechanisms(?) that transforms atoms and molecules into properties. Then we need to know which molecules create the underlying properties in consciousness.

On the other hand maybe we shouldn’t go there.
But why not? There is NO thing to fear nor lose, and only EVERY thing to be learned and gained.

The very thing NEEDED to 'go there', correctly and properly, that is; if one Truly WANTS to learn, SEE, and UNDERSTAND, is the very SAME thing that IS Consciousness Itself.
jayjacobus wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 pm
Nevertheless, consciousness is in the present and responds to stimuli but also to preferences, needs and wants. The latter elements are internal motivations without biological origins. If I am going to the beach, it's because I want to go to the beach, not because a biomechanical cascade drives me.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: James

Post by Age » Wed May 15, 2019 3:34 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 pm
If free will is a fiction (I don't think it is), then it's a deeply rooted fiction, one most folks won't give up as reality.

Think about it: there's no consensus among the navel gazers (philosophers) and the mad dissectors (scientists) on the subject of free will so why would non-philosophers and non-scientists fare any better?

No, fiction or reality, free will is here to stay.
'Free will', is here to stay, EQUALLY as 'pre-determined' IS.

They BOTH play an EQUAL part in Life. And, always will.

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henry quirk
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thanks for the heads up, age

Post by henry quirk » Wed May 15, 2019 3:37 pm

:thumbsup:

Atla
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Re: Question for determinists about the future

Post by Atla » Wed May 15, 2019 4:21 pm

JamesMorrisfive wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:47 pm
Do we get the same kind of enjoyment from playing/watching sports or games knowing that everything is predetermined? Do we still enjoy tv shows/movies where there's a good guy and a bad guy knowing that there's really no such thing as "good" and "bad."
I don't think much would change. Even if everything is predetermined, most humans can still choose to keep pretending that they have free will, and forget about the issue. The adoption of such a mindset is predetermined too.
I can envision a future utopia where everyone views the rest of the world as being in this together instead of me vs you or us vs them, and celebrating everyone's uniqueness and differences and wanting to help people with problems instead of judge or shame
Such an utopia surely won't happen due to determinism.

Impenitent
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Re: Question for determinists about the future

Post by Impenitent » Wed May 15, 2019 10:48 pm

free will... you cannot completely control the actions of others
determinism... you cannot control the actions of others

determinism... you cannot control your actions either- it was determined that you would act as you did...

how can you be held morally responsible for something you couldn't help but do?

moralists and lawyers need freewill...

que sera sera

-Imp

gaffo
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Re: James

Post by gaffo » Thu May 16, 2019 5:59 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 pm
If free will is a fiction (I don't think it is), then it's a deeply rooted fiction, one most folks won't give up as reality.

Think about it: there's no consensus among the navel gazers (philosophers) and the mad dissectors (scientists) on the subject of free will so why would non-philosophers and non-scientists fare any better?

No, fiction or reality, free will is here to stay.
.......in the West. the rest of the world - the majority 3/4'rs are Fatalists.

this is something the "West" never understood about Iraqnam. we thought - overthrow the thug and FREEDOM.

in real world the Iraqis - under the yoke of the thug were fatalists, and so as sheep just sat there until the next thug (Maliki/Sadr) showed up to lead the way.

and so most folks in the world are Iraqis not Americans and so are fatalists. we lacked that understanding when we illegally invaded Iraq.

i personally think freewill is overatted and do not have much faith in the concept.

not total fatalist and so do not lie down in front of a tank and claim it running over me is God's will - but i am 3/4 fatalist in mindset and think the "all men have freewill and so why we are not mere animals" is egotistical hubris and crap also.

gaffo
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Re: James

Post by gaffo » Thu May 16, 2019 6:01 am

Age wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:34 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:31 pm
If free will is a fiction (I don't think it is), then it's a deeply rooted fiction, one most folks won't give up as reality.

Think about it: there's no consensus among the navel gazers (philosophers) and the mad dissectors (scientists) on the subject of free will so why would non-philosophers and non-scientists fare any better?

No, fiction or reality, free will is here to stay.
'Free will', is here to stay, EQUALLY as 'pre-determined' IS.

They BOTH play an EQUAL part in Life. And, always will.
agreed - though 1/4 freewiller and 3/4 fatalist myself.

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