Progressive vs Platonic Education

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 11328
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:08 am

Nick_A wrote:... Platonic education is primarily concerned with what a child is and the potential for their being. ...
Maybe but primarily the idea was to sort citizens into their roles in society.
Progressive education is concerned with a child's personality and what they do - their conditioning. ...
Not really, it has the same aim as Plato.
A Philosopher King would know how to balance these two impulses so a society could become objectively normal.
These are your theist slips showing as you think there is something abnormal about people and wish a 'messiah' to save you rather than save yourself.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 11328
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:10 am

Nick_A wrote:... At one time in my life I was fortunate to experienced metanoia or this turning towards the light Plato wrote of. ...
Ah! A born-again Christian, that explains the zeal but not the bile?

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 11328
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am

Nick_A wrote:... while Platonic education will take place in private. IMO, they will be the fortunate ones if they have sensed the light. ...
Of course you wish this as then you can indoctrinate to your hearts content with no external light shining upon your actions.

Nick_A
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am
Nick_A wrote:... while Platonic education will take place in private. IMO, they will be the fortunate ones if they have sensed the light. ...
Of course you wish this as then you can indoctrinate to your hearts content with no external light shining upon your actions.
Teaching the practice of conscious attention in order to have the experience of reality is considered indoctrination in the progressive world. It really cannot be surprising when you consider that the impartial experience of the reality of the human condition must be intolerable since its acceptance require glorified imagination.

Nick_A
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:29 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 am
The search for one’s Humanity is just on the other side of recognising language and words themselves as Platonic forms. Structure.

The Good can only be experienced, not described.
I agree but does the word justice describe the form. There are many concepts of the word justice. Is the concept limited to the word or is the form a quality beyond our interpretations of the word? If so can a person go beyond interpretations and experience the form of justice?

Nick_A
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:49 pm

Arising
N. A Philosopher King would know how to balance these two impulses so a society could become objectively normal.

A. These are your theist slips showing as you think there is something abnormal about people and wish a 'messiah' to save you rather than save yourself.
The hypocrisy of the human condition within you and what you've experience around you is considered normal. But it really is abnormal. Nature didn't intend for us to live in opposition to ourselves. But it is now considered normal

Plato in his Chariot analogy explains the fallen condition of our dark horse. It is an abnormal condition. But since we have come over time to consider it normal, society does what it can to perpetuate it. Since we are abnormal without a conception of what normality is, everything remains as it is including the cycles of war and peace.

Platonic education is a means for becoming normal. Progressive education is a means for sustaining dependence on imagination which keeps us abnormal.

fooloso4
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by fooloso4 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:02 pm

From Plato’s 7th Letter:
But thus much I can certainly declare concerning all these writers, or prospective writers, who claim to know the subjects which I seriously study, whether as hearers of mine or of other teachers, or from their own discoveries; it is impossible, in my judgement at least, that these men should understand anything about this subject. There does not exist, nor will there ever exist, any treatise of mine dealing therewith. For it does not at all admit of verbal expression like other studies, but, as a result of continued application to the subject itself and communion therewith, it is brought to birth in the soul on a sudden, as light that is kindled by a leaping spark, and thereafter it nourishes itself. (341c-d)
Note the first sentence - he is talking about you Nick.

The second sentence should be sufficient to tell you that all that is found in Plato’s writings should not be taken as representative of his true thoughts on the matter. If the realm of the intelligible you imagine you know something about were his thesis it would not be right there for all to see. The same goes for the Forms, the Good, and whatever else one finds.

As to the spark in the third sentence, I checked three different translations and none of them supported the statement that the spark moves from one person to another. Instead Plato makes use of the common metaphor of something coming to light. There is no spark of knowledge transmitted from one person to another. As I said in a previous post, philosophy is a matter of what one sees not what one is told or transmitted by another.
Simone Weil provides a good description …
I asked you about Plato, you talk about Weil.
It is the vertical psychological movement from fragmentation in the direction of wholeness reconciling fragmentation.
Once again, if you are advocating a Platonic education it should at least be based on Plato.
The goal of Platonic education should be to unite truth and meaning.
Where does Plato say anything about uniting truth and meaning?
Again he doesn’t say it, he invites you to realize it.
And how does he invite you to realize it if he says nothing about it?
For example in the chariot analogy can we truly be human if the lower parts of our collective souls are like the corrupted dark horse? There is no connection between the white horse and the dark horse.
The chariot analogy is not about becoming human, it is about being human. No where does Plato talk about becoming human. Of course there is a connection, they represent different aspects of the soul. The are connected via the charioteer who controls them.
He provides a useful chart so a person can understand this intellectual process.
Are you referring to the diagram of the divided line? Interestingly, his version in horizontal, many others that are available are vertical. It is not about a process. Did you even read the sections from the Republic on this that I posted?
Do you deny the relationship between dianoia and noesis as described:
Noesis: Higher Reason; direct apprehension or intuition of moral, logical, relational, or religious first principles
Dianoia: discursive thought; ratiocination; lower reason
This is a misrepresentation. Are you not reading what I write or do you just not understand it? Noesis is not higher reason. Reason, from the Latin ratio, relates one thing to another. Direct apprehension or intuition is not a reasoning process. This is why you cannot think (dianoia) your way to noesis. This is why he uses the analogy of a springboard and freedom from hypothesis. This is why Plato uses the analogy of turning around and seeing.
You seem to believe there is nothing higher than dianoia. Is that true?
I know that I do not have the kind of knowledge Plato talks about, that you do not have that knowledge, and that Socrates says he does not either. You want to have it both ways, claiming that you are ignorant but also making claims about things you cannot know because you are ignorant. Hence ignorance of your ignorance.
To ascend in the direction of meaning cannot be limited to the dialectic.
You can believe what you want and find meaning in whatever you find to be meaningful, but if you are talking about Platonic education, they you must pay attention to what Plato says. As I quoted above:
… only the dialectical way of inquiry proceeds in this direction.
This direction is toward knowledge. Whatever meaning you ascribe to ascend in the direction of meaning, you are no longer talking about Plato. There is nothing wrong with that except that you attempt to lend authority to your own claims by trying to attribute them to Plato.
In his dialogues Plato presents three methods of ascent to the Good (see Plotinus, Enneads 1.3). In the Republic there is the ascent of dialectic. In the Symposium, there is the famous ascent by Love of Beauty. The Phaedrus, especially in the Chariot Allegory, describes the ascent by Moral Virtue (harmonia).
Once again, if you would like to discuss any of the dialogues I am willing to do so, but it must be based on reading the whole of the dialogue. That is something you have not done. I suspect that you have not read any of the dialogues, just second and third hand accounts and passages taken out of context. Taking things out of context is a fundamental mistake in reading Plato. In fact the Phaedrus discusses this in detail.
Those interested in this question of the divided line and how it relates to education are entering uncharted territory.
This is not uncharted territory, there is an extensive literature on this. You evidently do not understand you so you attempt to mystify it.
Teaching the practice of conscious attention in order to have the experience of reality is considered indoctrination in the progressive world.
The education of the children in the Republic was limited to the select few and consisted of music and gymnastics. There is no discussion in the Republic or in any of the dialogues of the "practice of conscious attention".

What you call a Platonic education is not something that is found in Plato. You simply attach Plato's name to it. When asked for supporting evidence for you claims from the dialogues you move away from them.

Age
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Age » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 pm

It does not matter what word you put in front of the word 'educate', if you adults just 'educated' your children in the Right way, or from the perspective of what the word 'educate' once meant, and that was to draw out, then all of these, so called, "issues" or "problems", which you, human beings, discuss in philosophy forums, would have already been solved, and thus ended, once, and for ALL.

If you adults just listened to your children properly and correctly, then ALL of you, human beings, would already be living in PEACE and HARMONY, now. If ALL of you adults just stopped ASSUMING and BELIEVING that you already KNEW what is right in life, and instead just drew out from within each and EVERY child their True Self, and thus their True potential, then ALL of YOU would already be living in that world that ALL of you so seek and desire, which is the exact same 'world' that ALL religions aspire to. Call that 'world' whatever you like, but, if you ALL just LISTENED to children, then you ALL would be living together as One, HERE with Me NOW.

Logik
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Logik » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:27 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 pm
It does not matter what word you put in front of the word 'educate', if you adults just 'educated' your children in the Right way, or from the perspective of what the word 'educate' once meant, and that was to draw out, then all of these, so called, "issues" or "problems", which you, human beings, discuss in philosophy forums, would have already been solved, and thus ended, once, and for ALL.

If you adults just listened to your children properly and correctly, then ALL of you, human beings, would already be living in PEACE and HARMONY, now. If ALL of you adults just stopped ASSUMING and BELIEVING that you already KNEW what is right in life, and instead just drew out from within each and EVERY child their True Self, and thus their True potential, then ALL of YOU would already be living in that world that ALL of you so seek and desire, which is the exact same 'world' that ALL religions aspire to. Call that 'world' whatever you like, but, if you ALL just LISTENED to children, then you ALL would be living together as One, HERE with Me NOW.
If children had answers they how come they don’t solve those problems when they (eventually) get older?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 3752
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

naiveté countered by experience

Post by henry quirk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:22 pm

"If...you adults...just drew out from within each...child their True Self...then ALL of YOU would...be living in that world...ALL of you so seek and desire"

"if you ALL just LISTENED to children, then you ALL would be living together as One, HERE with Me NOW."

As someone who's spent the past 12 years bringin' up and civilizin' a cannibalistic ape (and that's what they are, what we adults were) I tell you plainly: the absolute last thing you wanna do is 'listen' to them, or 'draw out their True Selves'.

These aren't 'noble savages', no. They're just 'savages'. You love 'em, direct 'em, further 'em, attend to their needs and (the more reasonable of their) desires, keep 'em under heel, don't let 'em meander too far down unprofitable paths, defend 'em, and -- as they age -- let go of 'em (slowly, haltingly, with one step back for every two steps forward).

They are not 'wise' or 'knowledgable' or 'capable': it's part of your job to help them become those things.

To that end: be the primary force in your cannibalistic ape's life. He won't become 'human' by hangin' out with other cannibalistic apes (the company of apes just leads to ape-behavior).

Teach your ape forbearance, expose your ape to disappointment, don't shield your ape (too much) from the consequence of his bad choices, never let your ape blame 'the other guy', instruct your ape in the difference between 'defense' and 'offense' (the first is mandatory, the second is forbidden), and on and on...

You: be the first, best source for your ape's answers, direction, principles. Be ready and able to counter whatever bullshit he brings home from school or cobbles together in his ape imagination.

Love him fiercely, discipline him coherently and consistently. Be his biggest, most aggressive advocate and his fairest, most discerning critic.

Pay attention to him.

Remember: your life is no longer your own. It, in a practical way, belongs to the ape (but, for god's sake, don't let him know that).

Age
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Age » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:59 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:27 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 pm
It does not matter what word you put in front of the word 'educate', if you adults just 'educated' your children in the Right way, or from the perspective of what the word 'educate' once meant, and that was to draw out, then all of these, so called, "issues" or "problems", which you, human beings, discuss in philosophy forums, would have already been solved, and thus ended, once, and for ALL.

If you adults just listened to your children properly and correctly, then ALL of you, human beings, would already be living in PEACE and HARMONY, now. If ALL of you adults just stopped ASSUMING and BELIEVING that you already KNEW what is right in life, and instead just drew out from within each and EVERY child their True Self, and thus their True potential, then ALL of YOU would already be living in that world that ALL of you so seek and desire, which is the exact same 'world' that ALL religions aspire to. Call that 'world' whatever you like, but, if you ALL just LISTENED to children, then you ALL would be living together as One, HERE with Me NOW.
If children had answers they how come they don’t solve those problems when they (eventually) get older?
Because they get distorted along the way and become disillusioned, by you, adult human beings. Children, literally, get adulterated.

Age
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: naiveté countered by experience

Post by Age » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:40 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:22 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 pm
"If...you adults...just drew out from within each...child their True Self...then ALL of YOU would...be living in that world...ALL of you so seek and desire"

"if you ALL just LISTENED to children, then you ALL would be living together as One, HERE with Me NOW."
As someone who's spent the past 12 years bringin' up and civilizin' a cannibalistic ape (and that's what they are, what we adults were) I tell you plainly: the absolute last thing you wanna do is 'listen' to them, or 'draw out their True Selves'.
Spoken from a True adulterated, or 'APE' behaved, person.

'APE behavior', means making Assumptions, based upon, Previous Experiences will NOT allow you to even begin to grasp what I am actually saying and meaning here.

You BELIEVE you KNOW what IS RIGHT, so just carry on, like you have below, and TELL "others" what they SHOULD, and SHOULD NOT, do.

Because you, henry quirk, BELIEVE that out of ALL the adults throughout humans existence, YOU KNOW BEST. Am I correct, in saying that?

If I am not correct, then WHY all the STRICT advice below, TOLD in a way that it is expected to be LISTENED TO, and also SHOULD BE ADHERED TO?
If I am correct, then just carry on how you have below.
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:22 pm
These aren't 'noble savages', no. They're just 'savages'. You love 'em, direct 'em, further 'em, attend to their needs and (the more reasonable of their) desires, keep 'em under heel, don't let 'em meander too far down unprofitable paths, defend 'em, and -- as they age -- let go of 'em (slowly, haltingly, with one step back for every two steps forward).

They are not 'wise' or 'knowledgable' or 'capable': it's part of your job to help them become those things.

To that end: be the primary force in your cannibalistic ape's life. He won't become 'human' by hangin' out with other cannibalistic apes (the company of apes just leads to ape-behavior).

Teach your ape forbearance, expose your ape to disappointment, don't shield your ape (too much) from the consequence of his bad choices, never let your ape blame 'the other guy', instruct your ape in the difference between 'defense' and 'offense' (the first is mandatory, the second is forbidden), and on and on...

You: be the first, best source for your ape's answers, direction, principles. Be ready and able to counter whatever bullshit he brings home from school or cobbles together in his ape imagination.

Love him fiercely, discipline him coherently and consistently. Be his biggest, most aggressive advocate and his fairest, most discerning critic.

Pay attention to him.

Remember: your life is no longer your own. It, in a practical way, belongs to the ape (but, for god's sake, don't let him know that).
Also, remember, I did NOT see one slightest appearance of OPENNESS nor inquisitiveness on your part, nor NOT one piece of clarification questioning here from you. I did NOT notice one single piece of 'listening' from you. (NOT that you have to. You, after all, as a child were probably NEVER listened to yourself, so of course you would have grown up with the BELIEF that you, adults, SHOULD NEVER listen to children, and/or "others".

What I did see from you was just one solid piece of I AM RIGHT, and YOU LISTEN TO ME and DO AS I TELL YOU WHAT DO, attitude.

I am so glad you "countered" "my naivete" with your past life experiences.

This is just one more example of how the human brain can so very easily gain completely distorted information, BELIEVE that it has, and that this is, the True, Right, Correct and Good information/knowledge, and then tries to and unfortunately more often than not does pass on that exact same very damaging and distorted information/knowledge onto other brains. Unfortunately, and this is again being witnessed, once more here, just how OPEN and thus impressionable younger human brains ARE. This is just another sad case of how a young unfortunate human being was severely abused as a child, by an adult human being, and who has now grown up and is, obviously, abusing children them self. But, as WILL BE SHOWN very soon, BELIEVES that they, them self, do NOT abuse children, and that only "other" people abuse children.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 3752
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

"YOU KNOW BEST"

Post by henry quirk » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:01 am

Yep.

You should listen.

You won't.

As you like.

#

"I did NOT see one slightest appearance of OPENNESS nor inquisitiveness on your part"

You didn't see 'openess' cuz it wasn't there.

At some point in life: a body has to stop bein' 'open' and instead be 'certain'. Such a thing comes with age and experience.

You aren't there yet.

You didn't see much curiosity on my part either cuz you post the same tired hokum I've seen many times before. It's predictable, boring, and oh-so 'young'.

No, I only posted to counter you, cuz you're wrong, you don't know what the hell you're talkin' about, and the other chickenshits here ain't got the wherewithal to just call a spade, a spade.

Nick_A
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:35 am

F4

From Plato’s 7th Letter:
But thus much I can certainly declare concerning all these writers, or prospective writers, who claim to know the subjects which I seriously study, whether as hearers of mine or of other teachers, or from their own discoveries; it is impossible, in my judgement at least, that these men should understand anything about this subject. There does not exist, nor will there ever exist, any treatise of mine dealing therewith. For it does not at all admit of verbal expression like other studies, but, as a result of continued application to the subject itself and communion therewith, it is brought to birth in the soul on a sudden, as light that is kindled by a leaping spark, and thereafter it nourishes itself. (341c-d)
Note the first sentence - he is talking about you Nick.
As I've said many times that the idea of the conscious universe with the Good or the ONE described by Plotinus as its source makes the most sense to me since it makes the potential for universal meaning and purpose understandable. It is a hypothesis we are invited to verify through efforts to know thyself as opposed to imagining oneself. The goal of Platonic education is to open the mind to a universal perspective the source of which is the Good. The goal of progressive education is to deny such speculation and instead indoctrinate the young with values determined by people with power in society. In short the Great Beast invents its own God to replace the objective source of creation or the Good. The value of Platonic education is in creating the environment in which the soul or essence of the student can inwardly turn towards the light. Part of the process is the experience of the relativity of thought; the process beginning with imagination and concluding with direct apprehension. If you deny this you are denying the purpose of Platonic education and support progressive education.
The second sentence should be sufficient to tell you that all that is found in Plato’s writings should not be taken as representative of his true thoughts on the matter. If the realm of the intelligible you imagine you know something about were his thesis it would not be right there for all to see. The same goes for the Forms, the Good, and whatever else one finds.
Socrates and then Plato weren't there to promote indoctrination. Their purpose was to raise questions that can lead to understanding through conscious contempltion . This is the purpose of philosophy. What I said about conscious attention is known by many. In a previous post I quoted Jacob Needleman's explanation of conscious attention. It is easy to verify that we cannot sustain conscious attention as we are. The ability must be developed for those who understand its value in harmonizing the tripartite soul and turning towards the light.
As to the spark in the third sentence, I checked three different translations and none of them supported the statement that the spark moves from one person to another. Instead Plato makes use of the common metaphor of something coming to light. There is no spark of knowledge transmitted from one person to another. As I said in a previous post, philosophy is a matter of what one sees not what one is told or transmitted by another.
Of course transmission of a higher energy experienced as light which leads to understanding happens. Why do you think the Apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus? It wasn't because of a speech. He transmitted something which opened them to objective understanding of what they were in the light of the potential for their being.
It is the vertical psychological movement from fragmentation in the direction of wholeness reconciling fragmentation.
Once again, if you are advocating a Platonic education it should at least be based on Plato.

Do you really deny that Plato's explanation of the relationship between knowledge and opinion has nothing to do with education?

The goal of Platonic education should be to unite truth and meaning.
Where does Plato say anything about uniting truth and meaning?
Again he doesn’t say it, he invites you to realize it.
And how does he invite you to realize it if he says nothing about it?
For example in the chariot analogy can we truly be human if the lower parts of our collective souls are like the corrupted dark horse? There is no connection between the white horse and the dark horse.
The chariot analogy is not about becoming human, it is about being human. No where does Plato talk about becoming human. Of course there is a connection, they represent different aspects of the soul. The are connected via the charioteer who controls them.
No. the charioteer is our conscious potential. As we are, the horses go their own way. The whole idea is becoming able to help the black horse so it becomes as intended in the human essence. As it is now, they are not connected.

I’d like to know if you re open to the following chart:
Before proceeding to final discussion let us summarize our observations thus far in the form of Table 1.

Table 1. The Divided Line

Level (highest to lowest) Name Meaning Cave Allegory Example

1 noesis Higher Reason; direct apprehension or intuition of moral, logical, relational, or religious first principles outside cave, seeing Forms (e.g., direct apprehension of moral truths) seeing another person in the light of spiritually-based compassion

2 dianoia discursive thought; ratiocination; lower reason outside cave, seeing images of Forms (e.g., verbal, conceptual representations of moral truths) a logical acceptance of truth that one should treat another person with compassion

3 pistis plausible opinion; trust; confidence seeing objects in cave (e.g., egoistic distortion of a moral concept) noticing a person's faults instead of their virtues and goodness (selective, egoistic perception)

4 eikasia baseless opinion; delusion; fantasy- or wishful-thinking seeing only shadows on wall of cave (e.g., moral opinion fully detached from reality) imagining faults or attributing false motives (e.g., psychological projection) to another person
Are you open to the idea that an individual can grow intellectually from reliance on baseless opinion into plausible opinion into seeking to verify theoretically by the lower reason of discursive thought and finally pass into the higher reason of noesis?

Can the contradictions raised by discursive lead to conscious contemplation reconciling the contradictions revealed by impartial discursive thought from a higher more conscious perspective? If you deny this I do not understand your attraction to Platonic education.

Opening to a higher more conscious perspective is part of inwardly turning towards the light. That is why it must be scorned in secular society which denies the light.

You have denied noesis as higher reason which is to say you deny the reality of conscious contemplation and intuition as higher reason in comparison to dianoia. What then is the value of Platonic education for you?

Nick_A
Posts: 3480
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:49 am

Once again Simone gets it:
Whatever debases the intelligence degrades the entire human being. ~ Simone Weil

The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell. ~ Simone Weil

The role of the intelligence - that part of us which affirms and denies and formulates opinions is merely to submit. ~ Simone Weil
She is describing the relationship between dianoia and noesis.

How many in progressive education would have a clue as to the depth of the progression of these ideas?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests