Is God necessary for morality?

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Ginkgo
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Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Ginkgo »

Well, of course not.

comments?
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VVilliam
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by VVilliam »

Why and in what ways, you don't say.
Belinda
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Belinda »

A divinity or other incontrovertible authority such as a dictator or a dictatorial regime is still necessary when there is no democracy.
For democracy to bite the electorate has to be sufficiently educated to resist inefficient or immoral politicians.
uwot
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Is God necessary for morality?

Post by uwot »

Ginkgo wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:20 am Well, of course not.

comments?
Job done.
Belinda
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Belinda »

uwot wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:19 am
Ginkgo wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:20 am Well, of course not.

comments?
Job done.
But you have not said anything as to necessary to whom or for what purpose.
Impenitent
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Impenitent »

Ginkgo wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:20 am Well, of course not.

comments?
pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name...

-Imp
uwot
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To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by uwot »

Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:59 amBut you have not said anything as to necessary to whom or for what purpose.
Well, the original idea behind christianity was catholicism. Catholic just means 'for everyone'. At the time Rome would go out into their neighbourhood, and mug the locals. But then to keep the economy expanding, they had to go further afield and mug people even further from Rome. Having done so they would, where possible, install a local who was willing to sell out his countrymen, but who nonetheless was much easier to peddle as 'one of us'. Knowing how important superstition was, Rome would allow their subjects to worship who they like, provided an image of the current Emperor was also in the place of worship. Everything was going swimmingly. Rome had conquered all of western Europe and all of northern Africa. So, penned in by the Atlantic in the west, the Sahara in the south, ice in the north, the only way to go was east. The problem was this place called Jerusalem, where they absolutely refused to accept images of the Emperor in their temples - they had this crazy idea that there's only one god. So Rome flattened Jerusalem a couple of times, still no good. So the Romans decide that if there is only gonna be one god, let's make him one that Jerusalem can accept. There were a few stories about a bloke called Jesus Christ doing the rounds at the time, so they latched onto those, made it into a book, claiming it was the fulfilment of a prophecy in another book, presented it to Jerusalem; said 'Whaddya think (especially about this 'render unto Caesar crap')?' to which the reply was, 'Not much.' So in a fit of pique, Rome flattened Jerusalem again and decreed that Jews should be persecuted.
The brilliant thing about catholicism, as in being for everybody, is that the same book can keep the lovey-doveys and the murderous nut jobs happy - you can interpret the same book anyway that pleases you. Anyway, seeing what a good ruse it was, mugging your neighbours and then selling them some love and peace narrative, hearts and minds bullshit, some bloke in the desert decides to create his own version, basically by replacing cattle with camels and having himself as the messenger of god.
Long story short, god, and the fluid morality you attached to it, is a nifty idea if you want to rip off your neighbours without having to kill them all.
Belinda
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Re: To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by Belinda »

uwot wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:29 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:59 amBut you have not said anything as to necessary to whom or for what purpose.
Well, the original idea behind christianity was catholicism. Catholic just means 'for everyone'. At the time Rome would go out into their neighbourhood, and mug the locals. But then to keep the economy expanding, they had to go further afield and mug people even further from Rome. Having done so they would, where possible, install a local who was willing to sell out his countrymen, but who nonetheless was much easier to peddle as 'one of us'. Knowing how important superstition was, Rome would allow their subjects to worship who they like, provided an image of the current Emperor was also in the place of worship. Everything was going swimmingly. Rome had conquered all of western Europe and all of northern Africa. So, penned in by the Atlantic in the west, the Sahara in the south, ice in the north, the only way to go was east. The problem was this place called Jerusalem, where they absolutely refused to accept images of the Emperor in their temples - they had this crazy idea that there's only one god. So Rome flattened Jerusalem a couple of times, still no good. So the Romans decide that if there is only gonna be one god, let's make him one that Jerusalem can accept. There were a few stories about a bloke called Jesus Christ doing the rounds at the time, so they latched onto those, made it into a book, claiming it was the fulfilment of a prophecy in another book, presented it to Jerusalem; said 'Whaddya think (especially about this 'render unto Caesar crap')?' to which the reply was, 'Not much.' So in a fit of pique, Rome flattened Jerusalem again and decreed that Jews should be persecuted.
The brilliant thing about catholicism, as in being for everybody, is that the same book can keep the lovey-doveys and the murderous nut jobs happy - you can interpret the same book anyway that pleases you. Anyway, seeing what a good ruse it was, mugging your neighbours and then selling them some love and peace narrative, hearts and minds bullshit, some bloke in the desert decides to create his own version, basically by replacing cattle with camels and having himself as the messenger of god.
Long story short, god, and the fluid morality you attached to it, is a nifty idea if you want to rip off your neighbours without having to kill them all.
Much has happened since the Roman Empire. Fast forward to the Reformation. Thence to the scientific enlightenment which is now established nationally and internationally. Who now needs God?
Who now needs God are Islamist autocrats and such ill- educated / indoctrinated subjects they rule over:

ethnic peoples, including as we are informed many US citizens, who need a focus for holding on to their embattled anti-science cultures:

frightened or superstitious individuals who in desperation appeal for supernatural aid:

religious institutions that have doctrines that cannot easily move with the times .

I don't much like the tone of your reply, uwot. Despite the lamentable history of God the moral message of Jesus Christ and other good men has been carried like a tattered dirtied torn banner. Our morality is founded upon the ethics of such men as Jesus of Nazareth.
Ginkgo
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Ginkgo »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am Why and in what ways, you don't say.
There are many ethical theories that have nothing to do with Christian ethics.
Ginkgo
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Re: To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by Ginkgo »

Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:29 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:59 amBut you have not said anything as to necessary to whom or for what purpose.
Well, the original idea behind christianity was catholicism. Catholic just means 'for everyone'. At the time Rome would go out into their neighbourhood, and mug the locals. But then to keep the economy expanding, they had to go further afield and mug people even further from Rome. Having done so they would, where possible, install a local who was willing to sell out his countrymen, but who nonetheless was much easier to peddle as 'one of us'. Knowing how important superstition was, Rome would allow their subjects to worship who they like, provided an image of the current Emperor was also in the place of worship. Everything was going swimmingly. Rome had conquered all of western Europe and all of northern Africa. So, penned in by the Atlantic in the west, the Sahara in the south, ice in the north, the only way to go was east. The problem was this place called Jerusalem, where they absolutely refused to accept images of the Emperor in their temples - they had this crazy idea that there's only one god. So Rome flattened Jerusalem a couple of times, still no good. So the Romans decide that if there is only gonna be one god, let's make him one that Jerusalem can accept. There were a few stories about a bloke called Jesus Christ doing the rounds at the time, so they latched onto those, made it into a book, claiming it was the fulfilment of a prophecy in another book, presented it to Jerusalem; said 'Whaddya think (especially about this 'render unto Caesar crap')?' to which the reply was, 'Not much.' So in a fit of pique, Rome flattened Jerusalem again and decreed that Jews should be persecuted.
The brilliant thing about catholicism, as in being for everybody, is that the same book can keep the lovey-doveys and the murderous nut jobs happy - you can interpret the same book anyway that pleases you. Anyway, seeing what a good ruse it was, mugging your neighbours and then selling them some love and peace narrative, hearts and minds bullshit, some bloke in the desert decides to create his own version, basically by replacing cattle with camels and having himself as the messenger of god.
Long story short, god, and the fluid morality you attached to it, is a nifty idea if you want to rip off your neighbours without having to kill them all.
Much has happened since the Roman Empire. Fast forward to the Reformation. Thence to the scientific enlightenment which is now established nationally and internationally. Who now needs God?
Who now needs God are Islamist autocrats and such ill- educated / indoctrinated subjects they rule over:

ethnic peoples, including as we are informed many US citizens, who need a focus for holding on to their embattled anti-science cultures:

frightened or superstitious individuals who in desperation appeal for supernatural aid:

religious institutions that have doctrines that cannot easily move with the times .

I don't much like the tone of your reply, uwot. Despite the lamentable history of God the moral message of Jesus Christ and other good men has been carried like a tattered dirtied torn banner. Our morality is founded upon the ethics of such men as Jesus of Nazareth.
Christian ethics is only one branch of philosophy. Most modern ethical theories are not influenced by Christian ethics. Plato and Aristotle were doing ethics 400 years before the birth of Jesus
Belinda
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Re: To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by Belinda »

Ginkgo wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:49 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:29 pm
Well, the original idea behind christianity was catholicism. Catholic just means 'for everyone'. At the time Rome would go out into their neighbourhood, and mug the locals. But then to keep the economy expanding, they had to go further afield and mug people even further from Rome. Having done so they would, where possible, install a local who was willing to sell out his countrymen, but who nonetheless was much easier to peddle as 'one of us'. Knowing how important superstition was, Rome would allow their subjects to worship who they like, provided an image of the current Emperor was also in the place of worship. Everything was going swimmingly. Rome had conquered all of western Europe and all of northern Africa. So, penned in by the Atlantic in the west, the Sahara in the south, ice in the north, the only way to go was east. The problem was this place called Jerusalem, where they absolutely refused to accept images of the Emperor in their temples - they had this crazy idea that there's only one god. So Rome flattened Jerusalem a couple of times, still no good. So the Romans decide that if there is only gonna be one god, let's make him one that Jerusalem can accept. There were a few stories about a bloke called Jesus Christ doing the rounds at the time, so they latched onto those, made it into a book, claiming it was the fulfilment of a prophecy in another book, presented it to Jerusalem; said 'Whaddya think (especially about this 'render unto Caesar crap')?' to which the reply was, 'Not much.' So in a fit of pique, Rome flattened Jerusalem again and decreed that Jews should be persecuted.
The brilliant thing about catholicism, as in being for everybody, is that the same book can keep the lovey-doveys and the murderous nut jobs happy - you can interpret the same book anyway that pleases you. Anyway, seeing what a good ruse it was, mugging your neighbours and then selling them some love and peace narrative, hearts and minds bullshit, some bloke in the desert decides to create his own version, basically by replacing cattle with camels and having himself as the messenger of god.
Long story short, god, and the fluid morality you attached to it, is a nifty idea if you want to rip off your neighbours without having to kill them all.
Much has happened since the Roman Empire. Fast forward to the Reformation. Thence to the scientific enlightenment which is now established nationally and internationally. Who now needs God?
Who now needs God are Islamist autocrats and such ill- educated / indoctrinated subjects they rule over:

ethnic peoples, including as we are informed many US citizens, who need a focus for holding on to their embattled anti-science cultures:

frightened or superstitious individuals who in desperation appeal for supernatural aid:

religious institutions that have doctrines that cannot easily move with the times .

I don't much like the tone of your reply, uwot. Despite the lamentable history of God the moral message of Jesus Christ and other good men has been carried like a tattered dirtied torn banner. Our morality is founded upon the ethics of such men as Jesus of Nazareth.
Christian ethics is only one branch of philosophy. Most modern ethical theories are not influenced by Christian ethics. Plato and Aristotle were doing ethics 400 years before the birth of Jesus
Good ideas have sometimes spread via trade often international trade. Sometimes good ideas are arrived at without cultural sharing and this may happen when economies reach similar stages at similar times.

Jesus was a follower of the OT prophets who were pretty well simultaneous with Socrates and Confucius.

Xian ethics have been enormously influential. Ideas evolve through time unless there has been some extremely destructive intervening force ; for an example of the latter there is the enforced acculturation of Chinese Muslims into the accepted Chinese cultural regime.
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VVilliam
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by VVilliam »

Ginkgo wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:32 am
VVilliam wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am Why and in what ways, you don't say.
There are many ethical theories that have nothing to do with Christian ethics.
Ah - so you are referring specifically to the Christian ideas of 'God'. okay....
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Ginkgo wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:20 am Well, of course not.

comments?
Hmmm... a trivial conclusion. A person who has no belief in God can behave in any way he/she happens to choose...moral, immoral, amoral...whatever suits his/her disposition. That's not at all a surprising claim...and one hardly worth even stating, since it has no important implications.

What's the real problem is this: Can a person who does not believe in God have justification in condemning evil or advocating for good? Can he/she explain why one is morally right and the other morally wrong?

And the answer, of course, is "No."
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Sculptor
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Re: To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:36 pm
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:49 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm
Much has happened since the Roman Empire. Fast forward to the Reformation. Thence to the scientific enlightenment which is now established nationally and internationally. Who now needs God?
Who now needs God are Islamist autocrats and such ill- educated / indoctrinated subjects they rule over:

ethnic peoples, including as we are informed many US citizens, who need a focus for holding on to their embattled anti-science cultures:

frightened or superstitious individuals who in desperation appeal for supernatural aid:

religious institutions that have doctrines that cannot easily move with the times .

I don't much like the tone of your reply, uwot. Despite the lamentable history of God the moral message of Jesus Christ and other good men has been carried like a tattered dirtied torn banner. Our morality is founded upon the ethics of such men as Jesus of Nazareth.
Christian ethics is only one branch of philosophy. Most modern ethical theories are not influenced by Christian ethics. Plato and Aristotle were doing ethics 400 years before the birth of Jesus
Good ideas have sometimes spread via trade often international trade. Sometimes good ideas are arrived at without cultural sharing and this may happen when economies reach similar stages at similar times.

Jesus was a follower of the OT prophets who were pretty well simultaneous with Socrates and Confucius.

Xian ethics have been enormously influential. Ideas evolve through time unless there has been some extremely destructive intervening force ; for an example of the latter there is the enforced acculturation of Chinese Muslims into the accepted Chinese cultural regime.
Does THIS (caricature of Hegel) remind you of anyone who posts on this Forum?

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/348
uwot
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Re: To whom and why is god necessary for morality?

Post by uwot »

Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pmWho now needs God are Islamist autocrats and such ill- educated / indoctrinated subjects they rule over...
I really hope you don't mean that.
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pmethnic peoples, including as we are informed many US citizens, who need a focus for holding on to their embattled anti-science cultures:
Yep. And those of us with bleeding hearts think educating poor white people so that they can rise above being trailer/council trash would be a really good idea.
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm frightened or superstitious individuals who in desperation appeal for supernatural aid:
I would hate to take away anyone's comfort, but there are real motherfuckers who take advantage of frightened and superstitious people.
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pmreligious institutions that have doctrines that cannot easily move with the times .
Well, anyone stupid enough to insist they know the truth should prepare for every conceivable fact.
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pmI don't much like the tone of your reply, uwot.
I'm sorry to hear that. How much should I change to suit you better?
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pmDespite the lamentable history of God the moral message of Jesus Christ and other good men has been carried like a tattered dirtied torn banner. Our morality is founded upon the ethics of such men as Jesus of Nazareth.
Leaving aside the question of whether Jesus really existed (he didn't), does anything he said amount to any more than 'be nice to people'? I mean, it's a great message, but do you need the son of god to convince you?
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