Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am
Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Envelope wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am
Safe man, I've been working on the reply and sketched out a structure of all the points raised and I'm trying to bring everything together. Although, before I get into it, I feel we need to clarify our interaction dynamic. First of all, what do you mean more specifically by "finding" people?
Look for.
Seek out.
Envelope wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amWhat is your reason for asking this question?
I KNOW how a Truly peaceful "world" can be created. But I have yet to 'find' the people who are prepared for this. So, if you can 'find the people', then creating this Truly peaceful "world" can really begin.
Envelope wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amYou now mentioned some unspecified thing that you set out to do.
Create a Truly peaceful "world".
Envelope wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am Has this chat got some other meaning or purpose for you other than discussing things for the sake of intellectual exploration of these topics?
Instead of just intellectual exploration I want to create these topics, if these topics includes creating a Truly peaceful "world" for EVERY one. I just want to start to make things really happen, instead of the continual talking about how to achieve them?
HOW to achieve peace is very simple and easy. Finding the 'right' people to help make this happen is somewhat harder.
Envelope wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am If you'd like to share more about your position I'm sure we could make the chat more mutually enriching.
Okay. Did I share enough or would you like to know more?
The only real things worth sharing are the ones that you WANT TO KNOW. So, EVERY and ALL questions welcomed, the more the better I find. ALL intellectual challenges also accepted and very welcomed.
Hey man I’m really sorry for having disappeared for a month. Let’s pick this back up.
I now see that by finding people you mean you want to meet the right group of people to collaborate with and start changing the world in order to make it into a truly peaceful world for everyone.
Yes, I want 'to find the right people' who Truly Want to make the change needed, to create the "world" the way that they Truly Want it to be.
I want 'to find the right people', and not those people who just say that they want to change the "world", for the better. I want to find those who REALLY want to do some thing.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThe only problem with this view is that it mixes up two aspects of reality that shouldn’t be mixed up.
But my view NEVER mixed up "two aspects of reality" at all. So, could it have been just your interpretation of what I have said that has "mixed up two aspects of reality"?
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amIs that “peaceful” referred to an inner sensation or is it referred to an external situation?
Both.
One can not Truly exist without the other, could it?
How could a human being have REAL 'inner peace', and live that way, knowing, for example, that there are children living in wars, always terrified and worrying about when peoples from other countries will start dropping bombs on them, or being absolutely terrified with bombs from other regions flying over head in order to kill other human beings. Or, who could have True 'inner peace' knowing that there are children dying just from being hungry only when they live in an external situation where food gets thrown away into rubbish dumps?
And, how could a person not have 'inner peace' living in a world that they Truly want to live in, that is; a world where EVERY one is living together peacefully AND happily?
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThese two sides of reality are connected because they influence each other, but if we want to make people peaceful inside the way to go is to give them the right tools.
I NEVER want to "make" people do any thing.
To me, if you want to "make" people peaceful, or "make" people do any thing else, then that will NEVER work. "Making" people do what you want, will NEVER work, successfully.
'To find the right people' means finding people who them, themselves, WANT to change. I certainly do not want to share some knowledge with some one who is not seriously interested in it them self anyway, especially because of the damage and harm that they could do with that knowledge.
For True change to occur, people, themselves, have to Truly Want that change first.
So, what I want to reveal is for those that WANT, and not for those that do NOT want. What I want to share is NOT about "making" any thing other than what it is that ALL people WANT, and that is; To be living together with EVERY one peacefully.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThe tools that you talked about are very good. The HOW formula, honesty, openness, will. Although if you communicate just these words to someone that wants to change they will not have a clue of what you’re talking about.
Of course they would not 'have a clue'. This is why 'finding the 'right' people' is so important. It is from the 'right people' that I will gain the 'right words' needed for ALL of this to be Truly and FULLY understood.
People have to be Truly curious in order to 'gain the clue', and to also understand the 'clue', and thus to literally 'have the clue', to what is really NEEDED to CREATE 'world peace'.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am This will practically be of no utility. But if instead you help the person to feel himself and you listen to what he says, and you’re good at helping him stay in a relationship with his feelings rather than relating to the external environment in the ways that he already knows and that always generate the same dynamics, he will actually start changing.
That is just a tiny part of ALL that is to be revealed, and shared.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amIf we want to make people peaceful outside there can be changes in the environment of each individual to help him change, but everyone is different and some people need very different things that are incompatible with others.
If that is what you see, and you know ALL of the different things needed for ALL of the different people, then you could start doing what you see is NEEDED. I, however, see that what you propose here will never work because of the complexity of it, so doing that would be just to hard as well.
What I see is the things that are the EXACT SAME for EVERY one, which when shared will united ALL people together, in an order so that ALL people change together, which will lead to the "world" becoming better and peaceful for EVERY one.
The two go together. Having internal individual peace AND external world peace. They both lead from and to each other. One helps in creating the other, and with the right formula in an extremely exponential way I might add.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amPlus changing the elements of the environment is much more “expensive” than changing from within.
But from what I have seen, the way things will change then 'changing the elements of the environment' will NOT be 'expensive' at all really. In fact, it will cost just about zero relative to the money value of today, when this is written.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amAnd this is why I say the pillar for a social change is a revolution at the individual level.
A lot of people say and refer to 'the change at the individual level' first. But sadly since they have been saying this, which could be for centuries now, the "world" has not exactly changed, for the 'better', in any True sense of the word at all. In fact, this SEARCHING for 'inner peace' for one's self only might actually be things worse, in some ways.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amSo, if you want to meet some new people that are already completely at peace with themselves and are keen to collaborate on some practical project you just have to go and search for them. Although you have already found one: me.
Great. I knew I would find some one, some day, if, and when, I searched for them. So, now we will just have to wait and SEE what eventuates.
I really hope we can stay in contact more often than we have been.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am In answer to your previous question, I am “truly” (you used the word truly, I would maybe say “enough”) open and honest to see and admit my wrong behaviours. And I am also truly willing to change. I have gone through complete ego deaths experiences many times. Moreover, I also can distinguish very clearly when I am in a position where I cannot be either open, honest, or willing enough. And so when I recognize that I’m in that position, I ask for help. And with help I always manage to improve myself, overcome obstacles, and change for the better.
You do sound PERFECT.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amSo If you wanna join forces this would be amazing! In fact, this very discussion is basically the first attempt at a collaboration toward creating a world that is truly peaceful for everyone (intended in both ways).
I am more than happy to join 'together'. I do not like the word "forces'' as there is NOTHING in what I want to share that involves any sort of 'forcing' in any sort of way. I only want to find 'that' what is in agreement with, and by, EVERY one anyway, which then provides people with the actual things that they want to voluntarily do also anyway.
I do completely understand what you meant by the word "forces" but if people feel, in any way, that they are being "forced" to do any thing at all, or feeling "forced" to LOOK AT any thing in any particular way, then they will never reach that True internal happiness and inner peace, which we ALL are seeking and wanting.
To me, we have to share and reveal 'those things' that people will instantly relate with, understand, and see as what they have been LOOKING FOR, for themselves, so that they will instantly WANT to do things, and NOT feel "forced" that they 'have to' do any thing.
If any person feels in any way that some sort of "force" is against them, then this will NEVER work.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amWe are now using the word peaceful, but obviously I’m taking it very loosely.
I am not. I literally mean a 'Truly peaceful world' for EVERY one. This is a 'world' where EVERY one is living internally and externally IN PEACE and HARMONY.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am By peaceful I mean what only I know I mean, and explaining it would just be an unfulfilling act because there can be no full explication of an implicit meaning. So, let’s just think of peaceful as what we feel as a good thing.
To me, when EVERY one is, literally, living always happy within themselves and within a world where EVERY one is happy with each other, then that is what I partly mean by 'peace'.
There is much more to this, and every thing else, that I NEED to explain in much greater detail so that it ALL fits perfectly together, so that it is ALL understood FULLY. For example, hearing, "living always happy", may sound like a truly unrealistic thing to achieve, but what I fully mean by this will be seen to be actually some thing that is very achievable actually. Finding the right words to explain this just takes some time.
There is an explanation of an implicit meaning. Just 'finding the right people' who will help in the REVEALING of those 'right words', which explains the implicit, just takes some time.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amAnyway, to make a new world, I would say that one of the first things to do would be to for us would be to diffuse a culture of self development and a jargon that is able to communicate effectively the meaning of the HOW formula.
Finding the right way to communicate this idea I accidentally stumbled across is the hardest thing to do. EVERY one has a different way of viewing and seeing things, so overcoming this with the right words, which can and will be understood by EVERY one, the same, is WHY I need to 'find the right people' to work with in order to 'find the right words' to explain ALL of this in a way that will be FULLY understood by EVERY one.
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThis is what process jargon aims at doing. Reactivating stopped processes is not a thing that you do by telling yourself to stop. Stopped processes are respects in which experience is not in process. People have called this the unconscious. In process terminology we’d say instead that there is a process-skipping structure, or a frozen whole, that impedes the person to be able to experience certain things. As I was saying earlier, by helping a person to stay in contact with their felt sense they can find implicitly functioning feelings that can be explicated and therefore carried forward, act by which the whole process unity is shifted, and some respects in which the person’s manner of experiencing was previously structure-bound are reconstituted. Here I’ve obviously used a set of terms that constitutes a jargon that is not common stuff and unless you have read Genlin very carefully you cannot understand what I’m saying. So go read his theory of personality change here
http://previous.focusing.org/gendlin/docs/gol_2145.html. Honestly it’s the best way to get into it, because I would probably be unable to make a better job at introducing this whole new jargon.
But has whatever this person has said actually changed the "world", for the better, for EVERY one. If not, then just like what "others", like "jesus", "buddha", and every "other person" have previously said, those words are obviously not the right words, which HAS created a Truly peaceful world for EVERY one, and thus not the right way.
To me, there is another way, which WILL work, this is just a combination of ALL the other ways. As I say I just need 'to find the right people' who I can share things with, and from their input, THEN the 'right words AND the right way' will come to light.
It will be from 'you', "them", were A WAY that actually works, will be revealed. Obviously no one person's way would be THEE way. But just as obvious is a A WAY that EVERY one formulates, or creates, together would be thee one way that ALL agree with AND accepts, any way.
Also, a "new jargon", or a "new set of words" that are not commonly used only creates more confusion and complexity than is really necessary. After all, ALL that is REALLY NEEDED is just the very basic and very simple 'common sense' and 'common knowledge' that we ALL already do KNOW, although it is still unconsciously KNOWN.
I have NOT read "genlin" nor even know who nor what it is. But what is the actual purpose of wanting to change "other" people's personalities?
Envelope wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amI could continue, but I’d rather make sure you’re back with me before going ahead too much.
I am with you.
If you want to share the ideas of the person who you quoted above AND want to add that into other things to be discussed, then great and perfect. We can and would be able to work together. However, if you just want to say that that way, which you have read up on, is the only way to go or a way that has to be stuck to, then that will not work.
To create a Truly peaceful world ALL things need to be LOOKED AT and discussed, and not just some.