Re: Hello
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:56 pm
In other words you are both insane.
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Do you recognize your self-absorption and how it is a hindrance to seeing anything that you aren't superimposing your self-absorption onto? Do you WANT to see anything else?EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 am[...the usual endless blah, blah, blah about himself and his projections...]
Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 pmDo you recognize your self-absorption and how it is a hindrance to seeing anything that you aren't superimposing your self-absorption onto? Do you WANT to see anything else?EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 am[...the usual endless blah, blah, blah about himself and his projections...]
Do people become crazier the more they try to reconcile and define everything about their experience... rather than simply letting it be and letting it pass and not making such a big deal and a big story out of it?
Yes.
Yep. I've found that when it comes to "sanity", it is often those who cling to it the most that are the less "insightful ones", and it is but mere degrees to being "insane".
Probably, but if the alternative "letting it be" was the best way to operate...might as well sit around in an opium/opiate haze, and just let "life" drift by, eh? Wait, that's a new and upcoming problem in America! Painkillers! Let's wage War on Sensibility, and general cognition now! Got the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, the "guerrilla insurrections" on banking, gender identity, political identity, and everything else, so why not sit down, shut up, and tune out too!
And therein's the rub, at the base we're nothing more than apes who think we're "civilized" because we don't entirely crap over ourselves immediately. Culture, as Nietzsche would have it, is what makes us who we are. The culture of the church, the social upbringing..., and the whole smattering of how to belong and where to belong in a social order. We put more faith in the edifices we construct with our minds (albeit some of them do work), and cultural workings than in the ability to assess for ourselves. Although that's a little paradoxical, we're "animals" of some degree, but we'd like to think we're more than that.EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:30 pm It didn't occur to us, and it wasn't due to culture. Wasn't due to education, or superior values. That stuff doesn't matter once men get stressed out and turn aggressive, primal. They made absolutely certain it didn't.
Let's say there's subtle differences in "humans" like there are in "dog breeds" (politically incorrect, but I'm running with it). Is it natural for a doberman to be a little more pent up and aggressive over say a golden lab? I won't go as far to say there's no mental disorders, but I also won't say that they aren't "culturally created". Not too mention the cultural trends towards segmentation for categorization. The Myer-Brigs/Kiersey, Astrological signs, PUA-"Alpha Male" breakdown of social "castes", classification of "sane/insane". It all seems to me to be a way to determine what is "safe/unsafe", or how to interact with the world, and get what you "want" out of it. The Christian mindset, or what have you is simply an umbrella term for such behavior.EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:30 pm I don't subscribe to the idea that there are no mental disorders, that they are culturally created, many do exist. But I don't think the loss of impairment is necessarily that catestrophic.
For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.Plato's Rock wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:47 pm I've been diagnosed with Schizophrenia if that matters at all. Been dealing with that diagnosis for about 7 years now. A little after I started posing "thought experiments" to myself, and questioning why I thought/acted the way I did. Along with questioning why society is set up the way it is. First questions were; "Why do we celebrate Columbus Day, and why is it a Federal Holiday where the civil servants get it off, but no one else does? Not students, and other personal?
I was going off to become an aerospace engineer, and an overall rocket scientist in Alabama (went to UAH) for a year. Had a psychotic break due to about a year of social isolation (I'm from Minnesota). Along with various incidents like car accidents (3 of them in a year), campus shooting narrowly avoided, and other stressful shenanigans. Ended up not sleeping (insomnia), and what may be equivalent to a case of PTSD.
A lot of it probably is due and thanks to a childhood where we were pretty much raised "like marines". If one of you fucks up, all of you get punished. And everything has to be done absolutely right the first time. No yelling, no screaming, no crying, no speaking louder than a whisper (essentially). No hiccuping, burping, or any other "child" behaviors essentially. If not, you're getting yelled/screamed at (almost like a DI would), and having to move and re-stack a cord of wood everytime there's a foul up, or you're "not busy enough". And no incompetency!
I guess that would almost imply that I've had ~20 years of "civilian basic". Although things have changed since then, but only because I've been pushing back. So I don't know, you seem like a cool guy and you know a lot.
I'm still trying to find my niche in life, and find a gainful way to participate/give back to society. And still pick brains because I don't know how to interact (still always don't) in civil society because of an overly authoritarian childhood. I almost, keyword almost, enlisted in the Marines about a year ago thinking, "Hey it may be like home, but simpler". Had the recruitment papers, and was actively being recruited for O.C.S, and "promised" a position as a V-22 pilot. And then just simply decided, no. It's too odd to be getting an email that's half blacked over with watermarks, and to be missing about half of the recruitment package.
...in addition to the mental health stuff. I realized that it wasn't meant for me. I can respect anyone who does it though, just not for me.
If you want to talk physics, chemistry, or science anytime, I'd be game for it. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts about unit cohesion (morale, and the like).
So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze?Plato's Rock wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pmProbably, but if the alternative "letting it be" was the best way to operate...might as well sit around in an opium/opiate haze, and just let "life" drift by, eh? Wait, that's a new and upcoming problem in America! Painkillers! Let's wage War on Sensibility, and general cognition now! Got the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, the "guerrilla insurrections" on banking, gender identity, political identity, and everything else, so why not sit down, shut up, and tune out too!
Other than that, yes.
True about the survival mechanism, for awhile there it seemed like the universe was intentionally trying to kill me, or at least get me to kill myself. I didn't mention the other bits I was dealing with during said time, but there was definitely other things too. Way too much going on the past decade that may be considered extreme stressors. The least of which I mentioned (5 deaths, and a cancer scare +more!). Regardless, that's the catch isn't it? Come up with something brilliant, and you're not an immediate casualty of life, huh?Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 pm
For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.
The out of the box thinking, that most creative people have, is partially due to their ability to transcend certain intellectual and social cultural norms. If schizophrenia is "the problem" you have...embrace it, there are worse things than losing one's mind temporarily.
Who knows...maybe you will come up with some brilliant thought that will change the world for the better.
Hey! I thought I was operating on the Golden mean here! And besides I didn't apply a qualifier to those thoughts of, "The Alternative". Everything other than words, was read into as a emotive per you. The "Post-Modern Author is Dead!". I'm just scratching symbols here, in one of my apparently grand schizophrenic delusions!Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze?
Cognitive Boxes. Boxes as far as the eye(s) (or whatever sensing function) can grok! Is it the brilliant people who do so, or are they brilliant because they do so? Aka, if Neural computing is based of a brain architecture, and it can operate in parallel, why don't we do so with our "linear-thinking"? Can't we have multiple streams of thought going, and cross streams whenever? (Synesthesia?) It's just for quality we have to focus, on a linear train?Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm I agree with what you said to Veggie about there being mere degrees between sanity and insanity... and it's all accessible to anyone. Brilliant people may be more susceptible because they may continually try to reconcile and define... using limited human awareness and knowledge to try to "control" within a vast realm that's way beyond human understanding and capability. It's like three-dimensional beings trying to define significance and rules within a much greater-dimensional space. That could make anybody feel crazy.
Our linear-thinking really limits us too. Our "paths" are a story. They can be for entertainment... they don't have to lock us into anything which we might then superimpose over all else. Going to the extremes we perceive is simply one possibility of countless.
So what would it mean if all states of consciousness are accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime -- and why wouldn't that be possible? Views could be seen or experienced from any position, depending on a being's openness or interest in such, right? Similarly, there wouldn't need to be a story in order for there to be high-level awareness and functioning, right?
The power of the story might be what drives people crazy. Children don't have a big story. They know how to "pretend" and have fun believing in it while they build and create and explore. It's as if adult humans forgot that we simply belong here to explore and play -- and there's no reason that we must feel insane about any of it.
You sort of wiff-waffle'd between the original premise; "There are no degrees of insanity", and "We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person". This is exactly why that "Blind Thought Experiment" of mine started to prove tricky to myself. If we're all impaired, in some way, how can we know if there's an impairment limit/degree...if it's not shaded? You spoke of a local resident (of which I'm no where near similar to as far as I know), but how can you know so? There's a lot of assumptions behind some of those judgments.EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:31 pm There no degrees of insanity, but certainly types. I don't want people thinking of it in shades.
....
Hopefully a massive gulf lies between you and him. If they accurately identified you as schitzophrenic, they you are the same type (and more than one type exists) and only then it becomes a matter of degrees of magnitude. I sit on the autistic scale at the upper most end of high performers, high enough I've managed to control most of the traits. You'll have to have a very keen eye to detect it in me, but I definitely sit in it.
....
We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person, we form from embryos who are constructed out of chromosomal maps. Gives and takes emerge. This is fine. We diagnose disorders more for the extreme, predictable traits, especially the ones medicines can treat in that identified subclass but not in others. If you can treat it, and show a change towards health, and it can be showed it wasn't the placebo effect, especially with fMRI scans backing it, then you likely have evidence for a real disorder.
Plato's Rock wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:19 amTrue about the survival mechanism, for awhile there it seemed like the universe was intentionally trying to kill me, or at least get me to kill myself. I didn't mention the other bits I was dealing with during said time, but there was definitely other things too. Way too much going on the past decade that may be considered extreme stressors.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:06 pm
For someone who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia you seem to be handling the symptoms pretty well. Considering the "life experiences" you have had part of the reason you manifest these symptoms may be "as a survival mechanism through creativity". In simple terms you understand that the environment you are in is not ideally a healthy one, and as a result you must "create" your way out of it.
The out of the box thinking, that most creative people have, is partially due to their ability to transcend certain intellectual and social cultural norms. If schizophrenia is "the problem" you have...embrace it, there are worse things than losing one's mind temporarily.
Who knows...maybe you will come up with some brilliant thought that will change the world for the better.
The least of which I mentioned (5 deaths, and a cancer scare +more!).
Been through, and going through it now with loved ones, that so you are preaching to the choir.
Regardless, that's the catch isn't it? Come up with something brilliant, and you're not an immediate casualty of life, huh?
Haha, it is a horrifying fact of our times...maybe a beautiful one also. Look at it this way, modern philosophers are much like explorers. We role across the vast sees of ignorance looking for "new lands" in which to raise our thoughts. We observe many things along our journey whether it be demons or angels, there is always something new to be found. Knowledge appears to be the last real frontier of our times...maybe it is has always been the only one worth pursuing.
Hey! I thought I was operating on the Golden mean here! And besides I didn't apply a qualifier to those thoughts of, "The Alternative". Everything other than words, was read into as a emotive per you. The "Post-Modern Author is Dead!". I'm just scratching symbols here, in one of my apparently grand schizophrenic delusions!Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm So it's interesting when people see "the alternative" as something extreme... to their own extremeness. Are there not many, many ways to manifest and interact with or without dependence on stories? Do you really think that the only two choices are going over the edge or sitting in a drug-induced haze?
Cognitive Boxes. Boxes as far as the eye(s) (or whatever sensing function) can grok! Is it the brilliant people who do so, or are they brilliant because they do so? Aka, if Neural computing is based of a brain architecture, and it can operate in parallel, why don't we do so with our "linear-thinking"? Can't we have multiple streams of thought going, and cross streams whenever? (Synesthesia?) It's just for quality we have to focus, on a linear train?Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:48 pm I agree with what you said to Veggie about there being mere degrees between sanity and insanity... and it's all accessible to anyone. Brilliant people may be more susceptible because they may continually try to reconcile and define... using limited human awareness and knowledge to try to "control" within a vast realm that's way beyond human understanding and capability. It's like three-dimensional beings trying to define significance and rules within a much greater-dimensional space. That could make anybody feel crazy.
Our linear-thinking really limits us too. Our "paths" are a story. They can be for entertainment... they don't have to lock us into anything which we might then superimpose over all else. Going to the extremes we perceive is simply one possibility of countless.
So what would it mean if all states of consciousness are accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime -- and why wouldn't that be possible? Views could be seen or experienced from any position, depending on a being's openness or interest in such, right? Similarly, there wouldn't need to be a story in order for there to be high-level awareness and functioning, right?
The power of the story might be what drives people crazy. Children don't have a big story. They know how to "pretend" and have fun believing in it while they build and create and explore. It's as if adult humans forgot that we simply belong here to explore and play -- and there's no reason that we must feel insane about any of it.
And there's another forum I've been posted on here; viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20173&start=45 where I think it'd be proper to ask, "Is it our language that causes us to think, 'linearly'"?
You sort of wiff-waffle'd between the original premise; "There are no degrees of insanity", and "We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person". This is exactly why that "Blind Thought Experiment" of mine started to prove tricky to myself. If we're all impaired, in some way, how can we know if there's an impairment limit/degree...if it's not shaded? You spoke of a local resident (of which I'm no where near similar to as far as I know), but how can you know so? There's a lot of assumptions behind some of those judgments.EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:31 pm There no degrees of insanity, but certainly types. I don't want people thinking of it in shades.
....
Hopefully a massive gulf lies between you and him. If they accurately identified you as schitzophrenic, they you are the same type (and more than one type exists) and only then it becomes a matter of degrees of magnitude. I sit on the autistic scale at the upper most end of high performers, high enough I've managed to control most of the traits. You'll have to have a very keen eye to detect it in me, but I definitely sit in it.
....
We all have something like this. I don't think there is no one totally sane person, we form from embryos who are constructed out of chromosomal maps. Gives and takes emerge. This is fine. We diagnose disorders more for the extreme, predictable traits, especially the ones medicines can treat in that identified subclass but not in others. If you can treat it, and show a change towards health, and it can be showed it wasn't the placebo effect, especially with fMRI scans backing it, then you likely have evidence for a real disorder.