I'm a philosophy virgin

[Arising_uk]

Sod it! I think I'll take up fishing instead.

But that's perfect for reading!

Don't be daunted, like you say, its just reading. Its the writing of the essays that was the bastard!

[rantal]

Sod it! I think I'll take up fishing instead.

But that's perfect for reading!

Don't be daunted, like you say, its just reading. Its the writing of the essays that was the bastard!

I always found it advisable to read nothing; it only confuses one, if you must read something, there is much virtue philosophic in brevity!

all the best, rantal

[Bill Wiltrack]

.








......................................................................................................






There is a hunger to philosophy.

There is a passion that goes beyond the intellect.



If you are to be a true philosopher...




Read a few books, whatever attract your attention, ingrain what you learn into your life, into each moment, let philosophy change your reality. Let your chosen philosophy impact & change your being. That would be the next step, if you would choose to be a philosopher.




This is also GREAT advice -

I always found it advisable to read nothing; it only confuses one, if you must read something, there is much virtue philosophic in brevity!



Best of luck -





.

[rantal]

If you are to be a true philosopher...


Read a few books, whatever attract your attention, ingrain what you learn into your life, into each moment, let philosophy change your reality. Let your chosen philosophy impact & change your being. That would be the next step, if you would choose to be a philosopher.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10436

Thanks rantal

[Arising_uk]

I always found it advisable to read nothing; it only confuses one, if you must read something, there is much virtue philosophic in brevity!

Brevity is not nothing.

Although I agree that some of the most powerful works of philosophy are short books, The Communist Manifesto, Tractatus Logico Philosophicus, Method and Meditations, The Prince, the Monadology, most of Russells and Nietzsche's works, etc. Although it could be cultural as some of the greatest works are very long, i.e. many of the Germans, and this appears to be due to the language used.

[Arising_uk]

If you are to be a true philosopher...

Read a few books, whatever attract your attention, ingrain what you learn into your life, into each moment, let philosophy change your reality. Let your chosen philosophy impact & change your being. That would be the next step, if you would choose to be a philosopher.

The problem with this approach is its just seeking confirmation for what you already believe whereas a philosophical education, i.e. pretty much reading the canon, forces you to confront your beliefs and then decide which to choose, or even make your own.

By your own definition you appear not to be a 'true philosopher' then. As you claimed Ouspensky as one of your few and yet your words and thoughts show no ingraining of his ideas.

[Bill Wiltrack]

.






First of all, I want you to be right. And for you yourself, I believe you are correct.


You have had a rough time in the barrel lately. This time now I hope will be rest, relaxation, & and recovery for you.





Two of the most widely known philosophers and in addition the most respected philosophers in the entire history of man are Jesus and Socrates.



Please list the books that it has been documented that Jesus read & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Jesus read:



Please list the books that it has been documented that Socrates read & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Socrates read:






In addition, would you please list the books that it has been documented that Jesus wrote & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Jesus wrote:




Please list the books that it has been documented that Socrates wrote & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Socrates wrote:







Please just respond to the lists directly and add little or no dialog.


I'm asking for these lists for these two lovers of wisdom for I will use each reference in a metaphor that I think we will all enjoy.



Take your time. Even if the lists become quite lengthy. We will be right here.






........................................................



........................................................Here is to the beginning of your recovery & redirection!









.

[tillingborn]

Two of the most widely known philosophers and in addition the most respected philosophers in the entire history of man are Jesus and Socrates.

They have their admirers as they have their detractors. In his own time Socrates was ridiculed in the play The Clouds by Aristophanes. (http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/clouds.html). He was convicted by a jury of 500 on charges of impiety and corrupting the youth, largely because he was an elitist snob and supporter of Sparta with which Athens had been at war on and off for most of Socrates' life. The fact that he was an apologist for the ruling classes, while stressing his own humility, made him very popular with the aristocracy who were keen to spread his message, which Plato, an aristocrat, duly did. The humility and acceptance of authority is common with the way the message of Jesus was interpreted by the later ruling elite of Rome when they established the Roman Catholic church. Nietzsche is perhaps the most outspokenly anti-christian philosopher.

Please list the books that it has been documented that Jesus read & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Jesus read:

Please list the books that it has been documented that Socrates read & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Socrates read:

I don't know of any list, but in the Phaedo Socrates says: 'I seized the books and read them as fast as I could in my eagerness to know the better and the worse.' http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.1b.txt Many of the Platonic dialogues are named after a philosopher that Socrates engages. There isn't enough information on J.C's early years to say whether he did or did not read.

In addition, would you please list the books that it has been documented that Jesus wrote & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Jesus wrote:

Please list the books that it has been documented that Socrates wrote & provide a solid link for reference.

Books that Socrates wrote:

The reputation of both is due to the books written about them.

To be honest, Richard, if you wish to be a philosopher you can do the reading, or you can follow others' examples, define philosopher as 'a minor irritant that posts self indulgent nonsense on the internet' and qualify immediately.

[chaz wyman]

Many years ago (about 40 years actually) I read "Thinking to Some Purpose" by Prof Susan Stebbings. I already had an interest in politics and her book showed me how to question what I read or heard. I became disillusioned by the nonsense, lies and obvious twisted logic used by the media and many politicians in support of their arguments. The lack of any real attempt to teach children how to question and challenge became another source of frustration when I was a school governor.

My eyes were opened to philosophy when I read "Sophie's World" by Jostein Gaarder about 12 years ago. Since then I found it hard enough just to earn a living that studying Philosophy was out of the question.

Today I have just turned 63 and have decided I want, and have the time, to study philosophy. I cannot afford a course in the subject but I have always been self taught and see no reason why I cannot do so with philosophy. After all, where did Socrates study? (No I am not comparing myself to Socrates)

I have bought Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy", Ordered the magazine "Philosophy Now" and joined this forum. I am looking forward to the new challenges this incredible field of study offers and hope to make many friends during my journey.

You don't need to pay any cash out to learn Philosophy. The magazine is quite good, but sadly this website is a poor representation of it due to the generally poor quality of posts; the hopelessly unphilosophical level of argumentation; and the polemical and uninformed ideological assertions that seem to be judged by who can shout the longest and write the last word.
Russell is okay but rather idiosyncratic. For a more in depth history there is Copelstone's monumental history.
For those moments when you are busy with your hands, you can listen to philosophy too. PN does its own Podcast, and there is also "Philosophy Bites"; "Philosophers Zone"; "Baggini's Philosophy Monthly"; "Philosophy; the Classics"; and if you can get BBC podcasts I might also suggest "In Our Time"; "Analysis"; and "Thinking Allowed" (for a social history and psychology angle. I tend to listen when I am making sculpture.
If you have a computer then you can get iTunes, you can also get Kindle services without a Kindle by downloading the software, and hunt for free books. All the Classics are available from Project Gutenberg, as well as the works of Darwin and much of our old friend Russell.
So really there is little need to be out of pocket only to follow a prescribed idea of what others think philosophy is by getting a formal education.
For fighting the BS, I would recommend a look at Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit, and if you can get a second hand copy of Hosper' Introduction to Philosophical Analysis
Please don't get put off by some of the participant's here.
It's nice to have a new thinker here.

[chaz wyman]

Although a great read I'd not start with Nietzsche as without the context of who he was replying to he can be difficult to understand.

Philosophy is pretty much a punctuated 2500 year-old conversation so its worth starting at the beginning to get the basics.

Overviews like Russells are also useful but theres nothing like reading the actual philosophers. On that point I'd also read Russells "The Problems of Philosophy" - nice, short book.

Nietzsche stands between the English and the continental school, in my opinion and foreshadows if not originates the overthrown of systematic philosophy that became the English school

all the best, rantal

Perhaps I should start with Neitzsche before I am "contaminated"by the rest then read Russell to find out what Neitzche is arguing about. Thanks for your support everyone. I have a headache already.

Russell did not have a great appreciation of Nietzsche, and did not understand him well - but then Nietzsche did not always understand himself either.
Much of N's polemic is an internal argument, and much of it si designed to be obscure.
I know everyone will have their own starting point, but I'd ask first what are your areas of interest?

[chaz wyman]

.


Two of the most widely known philosophers and in addition the most respected philosophers in the entire history of man are Jesus and Socrates.

.

Jesus had no understanding and no appreciation of Philosophy, Bill.

Philosophy is not about telling people what to think; what to do; how to behave; who to sleep with; what you can eat; and how efficiently you can throw your life away.

The lives is Jesus and Socrates and more particularly their deaths make interesting comparisons.
Jesus disgraceful display, with his disciples scuttling around in dear, one of whom was running all the way to the bank with the 30pieces of silver; then when they tried to nail some sense into him, he blubbed and lost the plot completely "why hast thou forsaken me'. boo hoo!

Socrates, on the other hand, trucked no compromise. He accepted his fate with equanimity. His disciples rather than running away like children, they offered to help him escape at the risk of their own liberty. Socrates bravely died by calmly drinking Hemlock - a very unpleasant and painful death, but without complaint.

[Bill Wiltrack]

.




I like your response.


That is a great way to address the argument that I began to put forward.


I was about to expose another poster of the fact that the amount of books one reads about philosophers does not alone make the reader a philosopher. And I am happy to expose this truth to you also, if need be.


I may be biased but I really like the response that I gave to this new member earlier:









......................................................................................................






There is a hunger to philosophy.

There is a passion that goes beyond the intellect.



If you are to be a true philosopher...




Read a few books, whatever attract your attention, ingrain what you learn into your life, into each moment, let philosophy change your reality. Let your chosen philosophy impact & change your being. That would be the next step, if you would choose to be a philosopher.




This is also GREAT advice -

I always found it advisable to read nothing; it only confuses one, if you must read something, there is much virtue philosophic in brevity!



Best of luck -




.

[reasonvemotion]

Richard wrote:

The lack of any real attempt to teach children how to question and challenge became another source of frustration when I was a school governor.

Richard you understand more than you realise. Is not philosopy the "love of wisdom", which in itself means a combination of cognitive and emotional dimensions of the mind. Love, I agree is not wisdom, it is a "need/urge" to obtain the object of love. Need to know comes before knowledge, but we need/love to begin the questioning, which you have. The search for wisdom not the possession of it. Is not philosophy a state of mind, to inquire. Do not be deterred.

[Arising_uk]

First of all, I want you to be right. And for you yourself, I believe you are correct.

I believe I am too.

Your wants and beliefs are immaterial to me.

You have had a rough time in the barrel lately. This time now I hope will be rest, relaxation, & and recovery for you.

Not at all, life has never looked better.

Two of the most widely known philosophers and in addition the most respected philosophers in the entire history of man are Jesus and Socrates.

Dream on, its all pretty much hearsay.

Now Plato wrote some and the Holy Roman Church built the other.

Do you know how the Bible was constructed?

If Jesus did exist then he probably read the Talmud and the Torah given he'd be Jewish.

Here is to the beginning of your recovery & redirection!

You're projecting your own issues upon me.

Given you think Socrates such a respected philosopher have you actually read Plato upon Socrates?

Brief enough for you?

[Bill Wiltrack]

.






...............................................................................................

.................................................................It's not about the amount of books you read...



It's the passion...


It's the love of truth and of wisdom that is carried inside you.





It's a hunger that cannot be denied.




Love philosophy. Experience philosophy.


Eat and drink and breathe philosophy.







............................................................

.......................................................................Love Σοφíα. Even if she does not love you back.







.